NetBSD/Dreamcast Official Port 90
sparcv9 writes: "The NetBSD/sh3 developer Saitoh Masanobu, who was able to boot the
NetBSD/sh3
kernel on his Sega Dreamcast last summer, has now officially forked a
NetBSD/dreamcast port. The Dreamcast effort will focus specifically on supporting the Dreamcast hardware, rather than just the Super-H processor contained within. Currently, it only boots into single-user mode, and the only function hardware is the serial port, but, hey -- it's a start." This project ranks right up there with all the tivo hacking going on in my eyes. When all is said and done, we could have really inexpensive, but reasonably powerful machines to play with.
Re:but wait... (Score:2)
Besides, an SH evaluation kit with less firepower than the DC is about $4k, and since the SH is as good as the StrongArm for PDA and other nifty applications, having an el-cheapo development environment is a huge bonus for those of us who want to design hardware on a budget.
b.g.
ignorance + questions (Score:3)
what uses would the dreamcast have once this project is reasonably advanced and what might this resulting machine compare to in standard pc-ish language in regards to speed (or anything else you care to compare it to).
basically, as a linux neophyte, i'm wondering if i should get on the mailing list and trying it out once it gets to a semi-useful phase.
My .02,
This beats the Playstation's.... (Score:1)
Now if only they would make some rpg's for the DC that DON'T look and feel like evolution. c'mon, what ever happened to originality?
Nice hack, (Score:1)
And when someone came up to you and asked why, you would say,"I wanted to see if I could". You would not need any reason for doing it other then the fun of it. And people wouldn't understand.
I remember when I had time to do such things, that was fun times, but now there's too much work in the real world.
I guess I have become one of those who asks,"That's great, but does it do? What do you plan to use this for?"
--------
heh I can't wait for someone to be busted... (Score:1)
Re:Linux works well on these (Score:1)
The reason is quite obvious, license. If changes are needed, BSD is the first source. I say this as someone who works regularly with custom hardware for specific purposes.
Linux may be advertised more however as it's a buzzword at the moment. Nothing beats an XML complient, Linux and Java powered machine
Re:Calling All Linguists! (Score:1)
I think it would really come in handy at strip clubs....
Re:Uh... (Score:2)
- 200 mhz processor: $35
- Custom PowerVR card: $25
- Custom Motherboard: $25
- Memory: $20
- Custom Yamaha sound chip: $20
- Controller: $20
- Modem: $15
- Two games (coming with most bundles now): $40
That's well over the $150 you can spend on the sports bundle, which includes all these things. How is Sega making money on the hardware again?
Re:This is really cool.... (Score:1)
Is it illegal to sell a DC that has been modified?
What About the Knitting Machine? (Score:1)
Re:Uh... (Score:1)
What's the int/fp performance of the DC? (Score:1)
Everyone pirates games anyway (Score:1)
Is it SH3 or SH4? (Score:1)
Re:This is really cool.... (Score:1)
Re:DC the most versatile console yet... (Score:1)
It's like saying here's an interesting story [google.com]...
Re:Linux already on dreamcast (Score:1)
NetBSD 1.5_ALPHA (DREAMCAST) #8: Fri Jul 14 01:42:14 JST 2000e vbsh3/compile/DREAMCAST
msaitoh@vslock.xxx.yyy:/var/sources/src/sys/arch/
total memory = 16384 KB
avail memory = 12988 KB
Re:Linux for Dreamcast (Score:1)
-lx
Re:Uh... (Score:4)
Both are the truth. Sega makes a profit, though a small one, on each DC. Sony loses a ton on each PS2, partly because of Rambus and partly because it's just plain more expensive to build. This article [segaweb.com] explains it in some detail, along with a few pokes at the alleged superiority of the PS2.
Re:hmmm... More on this? (Score:2)
Did you know that the GD-ROM format uses the same wavelength as normal CD-ROMs, unlike DVD which uses a different wavelength laser?
You could feasibly re-write the firmware on some CD-ROM drives to allow it to read GD-ROMs.
Also only some of a GD-ROM drive is actually set at the higher denisty. It is possible to read the inner rim of the GD-ROM with an ordinary CD-ROM drive.
Next time you care to taunt me, why don't you be more complete.
Calling All Linguists! (Score:3)
When did CmdrTaco get the Tivo implanted in his eyes?...
---------------------------------------------
Woohoo! (Score:2)
-Omar
Re:hmmm... More on this? (Score:2)
It does, but only because the Toshiba (or Yamaha?) play to be the first sellers of 1G CD-RW systems failed. Mosty because nobody wanted them. Many can still write them! They can't be read on normal CD-ROMs, so people wern't intrested. It fizzled, and then later Sega licenced it.
The Dreamcast can also read normal CDs, otherwise we wouldn't have any music :-)
CD Image - bit old (Score:2)
Re:hmmm... More on this? (Score:1)
I certainly hope that GD-ROM discs have a capacity higher than one megabit. Otherwise, we're all going to have to go back to playing Asteroids and Frogger.
Re:Uh... (Score:2)
So that's our solution? We run them into the ground?
It's a good thing I don't want to buy two of these "low-cost machines", considering they won't be in business anymore.
Re:DC the most versatile console yet... (Score:2)
Re:Uh... (Score:2)
Re:emulators (Score:1)
It wouldn't be too tough if the Dreamcast's processor supported virtualization (ala IBM S/390)... assuming it was like the i386 processor, some work would need to be done emulating certain functions. If neither of the above, it wouldn't be possible without full-blown emulation.
Re:Shhhhh! (Score:1)
Wait a minute. ACKBAR? Wasn't that some alien general in Star Wars? Jesus Christ, another conspiracy! We're doomed.
Re:ignorance + questions (Score:1)
Let's not forget ... (Score:2)
Linux already on dreamcast (Score:2)
--
Re:Hah (Score:1)
Consider this. NetBSD is not the most portable. It may run on a lot of junk hauled out of college dumpsters but not on current hardware. NetBSD counts processors multiple time when they claim portability, e.g. Sun 3/50, Apollo, Amiga, etc. are all Moto 68K. Same with various MIPs systems. Most of what they make the claim for is obsolete and out of production for years.
In sharp contrast, consider Linux. Think about Linux portability: current silicon like S/390 and Palm, and even some older stuff like i8088 and i80286 where NetBSD isn't anywhere to be seen. Go through the list of NetBSD claims and you will see that it is built around old MIPS 3K and Moto 68K junk. Certainly Linux beats everyone in scalability; from the Palm to the IBM mainframe, Linux runs it all. No one, commercial or otherwise, has that kind of Linux scalability. NetBSD lives in the past. Linux is the future.
Re:Why *BSD is dying (Score:1)
Sigh. First off, that was years ago, most people have gotten over it quite a while back. No one cares anymore. Yes, Theo's a bit of an ass (though not so much as he used to be), but Linus is rather a prick himself.
Secondly, NetBSD and OpenBSD are hardly the whole of the BSD community, in fact I imagine that they don't even have the combined userbase of FreeBSD. Considering that BSD usage and press coverage in general has spiked enormously during this year, and seeing that BSDI is getting massive funding and making great progress on the FBSD 5.x branch, I think BSD hardly has one foot in the grave.
Moderators, give this guy the flamebait rating he deserves. Simply because someone writes a lot of words doesn't mean they have anything to say.
-lx
But I want to see a Beowulf cluster of these... (Score:1)
It's scary to think that all these c001 h4ckz that we come up with end up in the hands of total lamers like Saddam. I am sure that is what he has in mind with all the playstations he scored. Cluster a thousand 300MHz 128-bit boxes and you have one killer supercomputer that's just itching to design an H-bomb.
Re:Linux^H^H^H^H^HBSD works well^H^H^H^HBETTER (Score:2)
Yet BSD is a BETTER [netcraft.com] choice based on your criteria.
Small - PicoBSD [freebsd.org] is a fully functioning Unix OS on a floppy.
Fast - BSD on benchmarks runs FASTER than linux. 10 [webtechniques.com]-30% faster.
Compatible - The result of the X86Open [telly.org] group (creation of a common binary format for X86 unixes) was a Linux ELF format. Thusly products like FreeBSD can run Linux binaries. And, FreeBSD can run Quake III linux binaries FASTER [thedukeofurl.org] than Linux does. And, it is well known and accepted that NetBSD [netbsd.org] is ported to more platforms.
And, "freely hackable", the BSD license allows the user of the code to commericalize their product without the worry of having to release the IP the company uses in the product. The code is MUCH more free to do what a human wants to than other licenses.
Looking at 2 'linux' projects that are willing to admit they used the pioneering work of NetBSD are the dreamcast port (acknolodge the boot code is NetBSD inspired) and Linux on [iu.edu] WinCE
Linux may 'work well', but in the world of computer code, the BSD tree is BETTER!
Why climb the mountain? (Score:1)
Why do people put their efforts into netBSD/DC? Because they can. Because obviously it's something they want to do. Because they have that freedom of will.
Besides, maybe they don't want to work on PC/Mac hardware. Maybe some of them ALREADY work on PC/Mac hardware. I don't know.
Consider this, though: To port netBSD to the Dreamcast, they probably have to have a good idea how to develop and OS port, they have to have an idea how to write device drivers, and certaily they would have had to have exercise that knowledge before. So what do you think they honed their skills on?
You know, it's probably better to have people working on project that are very enthusiastic and personally interested in a positive outcome.
So why climb that mountain? Because it's there!
--
Re:Uh... (Score:1)
Re:Uh... (Score:2)
I think you neglect the power of bulk purchasing in nearly all of these estimates.
Let's take one: "Custom motherboard: $25." Exactly what hat do you pull that out of? In single quantities a motherboard like the DC would be $1K+, but in the lots they're having them made I don't see why they would be more than $2.00 a unit. There is a quantity/delivery/price factor in every item you mention which you are ignoring.
Re:Better Hurry up before Sega release the next DC (Score:1)
Re:Uh... (Score:1)
1. It's not "everyone". Let's be generous and state that's 0.05% of all Dreamcast owners.
2. That's Sega's problem.
Re:Low cost home PCs? (Score:3)
>>>>>>>>>>
We've had 128 bit processors ever since the PIII came out. Console manufacturers will use the widest thing on the chip to talk about the "bitness" of a console. Thus, the reason PS2 is a 128bit console is the fact that the vector pipes are 128bits. Using that logic, Intel could call a Pentium an 80bit chip (the FPU is 80 bits), and Intel and Motorola could call the P4 and the G4 (respectively) 128 bit chips (because both SSE2 and AltiVec are 128bit vector pipes.) PC companies stopped doing this after Neomagic came out with a 256bit graphics chip (the memory bus was 256bits) for laptops.
DC the most versatile console yet... (Score:5)
Uh... (Score:2)
So it's not for playing? (Score:1)
Hm, interesting
Re:hmmm... More on this? (Score:1)
emulators (Score:1)
would they have to do the trapping that vmware and plex86 do?
they could call it 'dreamware' or some knock-off of vmware. but then that wouldn't be very creative.
jon
Just use the Zip drive... (Score:1)
Shhhhh! (Score:5)
Re:Linux already on dreamcast (Score:2)
http://www.m17n.org/linux-sh/ [m17n.org]
--
Re:Uh... (Score:3)
--
Linux works well on these (Score:3)
It will probably also run nicely on on the X-Box. :)
can you imagine... (Score:1)
a beowulf cluster of these...
Re:Woohoo! (Score:1)
He who knows not, and knows he knows not is a wise man
Re:Uh... (Score:3)
Sure, if enough prople did it. But I expect most people buying a Dreamcast will buy some games even if they want to hack a Unix onto it. Plus if enough people were hacking Unix onto it to be a problem, Sega could "just" build the system profit into the Ethernet (roumored to be on sale RSN). Unix geeks can't resist an ethernet, can they? :-)
Most video game systems break even when two games are bought for it. I have nine (and and 4 Sega controler purchases, and two VMUs), so I can handle at least 3.5 free loaders. Who wants to sign up?
Seriously Sega has a much smaller problem here then iOpener, or web-runner because even if we hack the box, they still provide a service. I mean it would be cool to play nethack ont he dreamcast on my TV, but it isn't going to replace Sega Bass Fishing now is it?
Nah, people will still buy games (Score:2)
-John
Linux for Dreamcast (Score:4)
d00d! (Score:1)
and they're getting h4x0r3d?
Re:Linux works well on these (Score:1)
Re:This is really cool.... (Score:1)
The real trick would be to find enough room in the case for one of those miniature IDE drives found in laptops, otherwise some external hack might be needed.
Re:This beats the Playstation's.... (Score:2)
Rumours have been around for a while of a PS2 Yaroze, though there's nothing confirmed on that front. Console hackers are allegedly starting to make progress on PS2 programs as well (though still at the level of 'Hello World'...)
Either way it's cool, and as soon as I get some spare time I'll be digging out a suitable cable and starting to put together some DC programs...
Re:Uh... (Score:1)
Consider the following:
Re:Woohoo! (Score:2)
Re:hmmm... More on this? (Score:1)
Re:hmmm... More on this? (Score:2)
"1mb"? That's not real impressive... I mean you can fit 1.44mb on a floppy.... oh you meant 1gb right?
http://www.bootyproject.org [bootyproject.org]
Re:Shhhhh! (Score:1)
Re:Uh... (Score:1)
Re:Nah, people will still buy games (Score:1)
but wait... (Score:2)
From the geek in me, that's really cool!
From the logical side in me... If the developers hacking these systems would concentrate their obvious talent into something like perfecting support on standard PC/Mac etc hardware I think it may be more benificial to the community at large.
As the Dreamcast will be totaly revamped in its next iteration (probably), making this port almost useless. If this port only runs in backward compatibility mode, whats the point? And to what end other than a cool hack that gets posted on /. does this have. Are all the pimple faced kids who are playing games on theirs going to rush out and download a port of BSD to run on their systems? If they have a burner to make the CD, don't they already have hardware that's probably pretty cool already?
So the intention of getting cheap hardware that can be usefull is now useless? Who becomes the end user? Some little old lady who's grandkid has all the cool toys and has thrown his Dreamcast asside for the new PS2 he finally got off backorder?
I think if the community of hackers is to survive, focus must be applied. How many projects at source forge [sourceforge.org] are duplicates doing the same code for the same end but independant of each other.
And for the troll... wouldn't it be cool to build a cluster of these...
Before you hack that fish [mit.edu]... think about why your doing it.
CD death (Score:1)
Anyway, one issue which kept coming up on the boards was the supposed death of the GDROM unit after playing CD games for a while. Lots of people posted saying it had actually happened to them, and people tried to explain it in terms of the drive's access pattern, i.e. they said that the original games were written in an optimized way for sequential access, and with home burns the reads would be skipping about more...
What I want to know is, was this all covert FUD from Sega agents, or is it really true?
Re:This is really cool.... (Score:1)
Re:heh I can't wait for someone to be busted... (Score:1)
Now we can write our own games (Score:1)
This is really cool.... (Score:4)
The only big show stopper for me is thwe lack of storage. Unlike tyhe ps2, the DC has now usb or firewire ports, which means that adding a hdd ain't going to be easy. In fact, does anyone know if adding a HDD to the DC is doable?
Re:hmmm... More on this? (Score:1)
still I can always plead "deliberate mistake"
Kilo, Mega, Giga, Tera, who cares!!!
Dreamcast Connectivity Interfaces (Score:1)
As far as I know, the USB 1.1 spec specifies a 1.5 Mb/s subchannel and the DC serial port can run at 1.5 MB/s as well.
Are there any USB-on-a-chip implementations available which might support such an effort?
Better Hurry up before Sega release the next DC (Score:2)
There's loads of other info about DC emulation at www.boob.co.uk and Edge magazine (in the UK) recently had an article about DC emulation.
Re:What about networking? (Score:1)
Re:DC the most versatile console yet... (Score:1)
It should be www.dcemulation.com [dcemulation.com]
Re:Linux already on dreamcast (Score:1)
Re:heh I can't wait for someone to be busted... (Score:1)
dreamcast netbsd/linux cd images? (Score:1)
Re:Linux for Dreamcast (Score:2)
ooh, yeah yeah! (Score:1)
This needs to stop.
Re:hmmm... More on this? (Score:1)
Re:Woohoo! (Score:2)
Many people are already writing emulators and homebrew games using "baby" OSs such as Dan Potter's newlib -- but IMHO a good NetBSD or Linux port would enable ports of things like MAME to be done fairly trivially. I'm *dying* to have MAME on my DC.
NB: Some of the newer games emulated by MAME just won't fit in the DC's RAM. The MAME binary is bloated due to the sheer number of games it supports. I'd expect to see a limited number of games supported by DC MAME, and I'd also expect to see it split into a number of smaller binaries, each supporting a subset of games.
--
Re:Uh... (Score:1)
Officially, the max resolution is 640x480 VGA, but someone (Dan Potter?) has done some experimental work with 800x600.
The Dreamcast is a surprisingly powerful little console. All that it really lacks is a storage device; with an ethernet adapter though it could be great as a diskless client.
I think the folks at Sega are looking at NetBSD as yet another OS upon which developers can write games. They might also 'borrow' code to further enhance their own API's.
gregmg
Re:Better Hurry up before Sega release the next DC (Score:1)
hmmm... More on this? (Score:4)
So I dug around, it looks like the DC is actually capable of booting off a standard ISO-9660 CD-ROM. [netbsd.org]
Interesting? I thought so... Here are some really interesting links on Dreamcast Software Programming [mc.pp.se] and Hardware programming. [mc.pp.se]
It's incredible what's going on. What else has been ported to the DC?