KDE's 'Plasma Login Manager' Stops Supporting FreeBSD - Because Systemd (itsfoss.com) 107
KDE's "Plasma Login Manager" is apparently dropping support for FreeBSD, the Unix-like operating system, reports the blog It's FOSS. They cite a recently-accepted merge request from a KDE engineer to drop the code supporting FreeBSD, since the login manager relies on systemd/logind:
systemd and logind look like hard dependencies of the login manager, which means the software is built to work exclusively with these components and cannot function without them... logind is a component of systemd that is responsible for user session management...
This doesn't mean that KDE has abandoned the operating system altogether. FreeBSD users can still run the KDE Plasma desktop environment and continue using SDDM, the current login manager that works just fine on such systems.
The article argues FreeBSD users "won't really care much for missing out on this as they have plenty of login manager options available."
This doesn't mean that KDE has abandoned the operating system altogether. FreeBSD users can still run the KDE Plasma desktop environment and continue using SDDM, the current login manager that works just fine on such systems.
The article argues FreeBSD users "won't really care much for missing out on this as they have plenty of login manager options available."
BSD is dead! (Score:5, Funny)
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It is now official. Netcraft has confirmed: BSD is dying
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered BSD community when IDC confirmed that BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be the Amazing Kreskin [amazingkreskin.com] to predict BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for BSD because BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for BSD. As many of us are already aware, BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that BSD has steadily declined in market share. BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, BSD is dead.
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KDE just ensured it was dead by having SystemD as a hard requirement. WTF is up with these folks? Why is there such a diehard push towards SystemD? Nobody that I know personally wants it at all. People with principles different than my own appear to REALLY love SystemD. I just don't get it. It is a terrible binary mess that is difficult to troubleshoot and has breaking points that are disastrous enough to require re-installation rather than repairing. Why anyone wants that is beyond me.
Re:BSD is dead! (Score:4, Interesting)
Sadly, I expect much more of this.
It might take a few more years, but they will slowly make everything dependent on systemd.
Then, linux will be effectively owned by IBM.
IBM has operated like this since the 1950s.
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KDE is dead (Score:1)
They stopped supporting BSD and any linux that doesn't support Systemd, Microsoft's infiltration of the Linux ecosystem.
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It's also likely not a priority. People forget that login managers exist, and they work independently of the desktop environment. I mean, you log into any non-Linux machine graphically and it asks you for a username, password, and what environment you want to boot into - you can often have basic ones like twm or fvwm, full fat KDE and GNOME, even ones like CDE and Java (on Solaris).
You picked when you logged into your machine, not when you installed the OS (e.g., Ubuntu, Kubuntu, etc). Generally speaking t
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People forget that login managers exist, and they work independently of the desktop environment.
I can't speak to KDE, but I recently found that Gnome wasn't particularly happy if I tried using something other than GDM - some things simply didn't work (like screen locking, IIRC).
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There isn't really a whole lot of choice on login managers. I used to use slim for X11 which worked fine for i3. If SDDM was the old KDE login manager, it's future is probably uncertain. When I switched to sway/wayland, I tried lightdm but it at that time, it didn't work for FreeBSD/Wayland. For now, I just put a few lines in my `.zprofile` so that if I switch to a particular one of the virtual consoles to login, it'll start sway manually. Would be nice to have something really basic like slim (or good old
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That's for now. Slowly, watch for other parts of KDE to drop FreeBSD support b'cos.... systemd. Unless FreeBSD decides to pick up that slack. But they needn't - they have Lumina, from their previous PC-BSD project
And where did he go after red hat? (Score:2)
And why did he go there?
Re:KDE is dead (Score:4, Interesting)
Unfortunately Pottering's engineering experience was more inspired by Microsoft's style. The problem with Systemd isn't the general concept. The problem is with the many, many small details of the implementation.
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Yes, but Red Hat, even under IBM's rule, isn't anywhere as evil as Poettering wants. I'm not good at who-works-where-ology, and haven't been paying any attention at all in the last few years -- but I am not aware of even a single Red Hat engineer who would deserve disrespect. Lennart is where he belongs.
This Is How It Starts (Score:4, Insightful)
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Modern desktops have so many inter-dependencies that it makes total sense to develop for a single init system, and have tight integration with it. Otherw
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Out of curiosity I looked up what desktops are on BSD.
Even without Plasma there are several to choose from. I'm not seeing a problem here if you are simply trying to get work done.
https://docs.freebsd.org/en/bo... [freebsd.org]
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Modern desktops have so many inter-dependencies that it makes total sense to develop for a single init system, and have tight integration with it. Otherwise it's just compromise after compromise, and some of those compromises have security implications. I can see a world where each DE targets a single init system, and you use a DE based on what init system your OS has.
what interdependencies do you have in mind? it's not something I've thought deeply about, but I can't think of any dependency on the init system beyond don't interface to shutdown and reboot stuff. maybe some sleep related things?
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Starting and stopping services, login/automounting come to mind.
You're right! It was never possible to do any of that before systemd was invented.
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Otherwise it's just compromise after compromise, and some of those compromises have security implications.
That's a remarkably good description of the systemd engineering approach.
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This is Red Hat's version of embrace, extend, extinguish
Sure, except that systemd is open-source. So if someone cared, it could be ported to BSD. Or BSD could implement the kernel infrastructure. Or maybe one could help remove the systemd dependency from KDE. But no, it's easier to complain than to do.
You can't even bother writing the "systemd" correctly.
let's not pretend this outcome is incidental, let alone healthy
Conspiracy theories on the other hand, that's totally healthy.
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No way man.
2036 is the year of the GNU/HURD desktop!
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They can just implement the logind API. FreeBSD already reimplemented other useful systemd functions.
Re:This Is How It Starts (Score:5, Interesting)
This is precisely what has happened with pulse audio. Sure ALSA is still around but good luck finding any project that will support it. I tried to hold out on apluse but it it just isn't feasible anymore. I suspect I will be forced into systemd at some point, but for now, openrc and friends are holding strong.
Huh? (Score:2)
PulseAudio is Poetterings garbage that sits on top of ALSA which is a low level kernel interface, it doesn't replace it. I've written code that uses alsa directly, its not too hard though frankly opensound was a LOT more intuitive and simpler to use but sadly its long gone. Haven't bothered with PA, anything LP wrote I avoid like the plague - eg I run slackware which is systemd free.
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I tried to hold out on apluse but it it just isn't feasible anymore.
What is your dependency problem? I still use apulse. Though I had to install pipewire due to using kde-spectacle, but I could choose to not install spectacle.
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Nothing is forced into anything. logind isn't even a required part of systemd. It's a question of what makes sense for you the maintainer to implement and what functionality it provides. ALSA is still around but god damn I'm glad I don't actively see that piece of shit anymore. I don't use my computer like it's 1995 anymore so I don't have a requirement for a sound subsystem that has 1995 level of functionality and can't even cope with the fact that something as mindblowing as a bluetooth headset is turned
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It said it wasn't a required part.
You're right, I misread that, thanks.
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These discussions clearly cause Slashdotters to turn off their brain.
So much this! It's like an incantation from a Harry Potter movie Brainus deadus systemd! And watch as people go lose their mind.
Re:This Is How It Starts (Score:4)
Sure ALSA is still around but good luck finding any project that will support it. I tried to hold out on apluse but it it just isn't feasible anymore.
No, now you use pipewire, pipewire-pulse, and wireplumber. Just launch them in that order and it all works fine.
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perhaps you can write a Boot Script that also is a login manager, and also a UI.
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Starts? This has been ongoing for a long time.
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You went full tinfoil.
systemd legitimately solves a lot of problems in Linux. Not everyone agrees with systemd or systemd having such a wide scope / scope creep of functionality on the system (and even I turn off some bits of it), and those are fair points to make in good faith, but I think it is difficult to assign a 15+ year sinister conspiracy theory to the systemd project like this. The main systemd developer doesn't even work for Red Hat anymore (ironically, he now works for Microsoft, which I'm sure w
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If you have on-site name servers, every time you upgrade, name serving ceases to work, so you cant login to the non-working machines to fix them!
And a load of other problems.
Systemd is the software equivalent of plague, and belongs in hell!
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If you have on-site name servers, every time you upgrade, name serving ceases to work, so you cant login to the non-working machines to fix them!
Ya, no. We have hundreds of servers, all running systemd since CentOS7. Ya, it was an annoying learning curve- and ya, if you're ignorant about systemd-resolved, or can't read that blurb at the top of /etc/resolv.conf that says "DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE" or whatever it is, ya, you're probably gonna have a bad time.
Systemd is the software equivalent of plague, and belongs in hell!
And you'd be able to configure it correctly if you stopped trying to find the disease using your fucking Miasma theory.
Hint: You can disable systemd-resolved.
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what does 15 years have to do with anything?
Why does the corporatification of the free ecosystem have to be a conspiracy?
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I will always recommend KDE Plasma as the best desktop environment ever, hands down.But I deeply regret this instance of systemd creep into it, excluding not only the xBSDs, but all other Unices and even systemd-clean distros such as Slackware (the oldest continously maintained Linux distribution). Even more so when it was some time ago where the KDE homepage asked the question: is UNIX ready for the desktop? [archive.org] and described itself as:
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before you know it the dependencies are so intertwined with this exclusive functionality that the downstream project can no longer support any other init system.
(I'm not saying it's good, but) it is already the case that we need some Poettering code for KDE on an openrc (non-systemd) system. For this reason the Gentoo devs have extracted elogind (part of systemd) as a standalone package for non-systemd configurations, as the minimum requirement. Otherwise, it would already not be possible to have KDE on a gentoo without systemd (kde apps depend on solid, which depends on udisks, which depends on polkit, which depends the systemd-logind).
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This is Red Hat's version of embrace, extend, extinguish
No this is the world's version of how normal software interdependencies work. No software works in a bubble. The only questions are a) whether the dependencies are API compatible and easily swapped out, b) whether the upstream dependency triggers a Slashdotter to scrunch up their panties in a rage.
They keep making additional modules that are exclusive to SystemD with enticing functionality, they lure downstream projects to integrate those modules, and before you know it the dependencies are so intertwined with this exclusive functionality that the downstream project can no longer support any other init system. Say what you want about all of the other init systems available, but I can't think of another init system that pulled shit like this.
Not sure what you're trying to say but it sounds like you don't have a clue. There's nothing dependent on systemd as an init system here. You can produce a distro with systemd without using logind. But the questio
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That's the deal with open source software. You either do the work yourself, or you accept whatever the people who are doing the work decide.
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That's the deal with open source software. You either do the work yourself, or you accept whatever the people who are doing the work decide.
Time for me to provide the link. - https://www.linuxfromscratch.o... [www.linuxfromscratch.org]
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Realistically most open source software is going to be as permissive as possible but only to the point where it doesn't require extra effort on something that they're not motivated to work on.
For a long time Linux and *BSD were close enough that most software would work on either. They're not going to care where you run it. Over time though, as things have diverged, if BSD requires significantly more work to keep the system compatible, and none of them use BSD, then they're not likely to keep supporting i
KDE? Who cares? (Score:1)
There are tons of desktop environments and a lot of them are better than KDE (or Gnome).
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Can you name some of those "tons of desktop environments" that aren't niche products that you need to be a masochist to use, and aren't just forks of GNOME? MATE is a GNOME 2 fork. Cinnamon is a GNOME 3 fork. Xfce and Budgie are GTK-based, which means GObject and the rest of that bullshit, so it may as well be GNOME. LXDE is based on GTK2, but confusingly has forks based on GTK3 and Qt, so it's a mess of incompatible options.
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Masochists are the most vocal responders. You have been warned.
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KDE and gnome both suck and theyre for unix users who actually like windows
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I cannot mod you up even with mod-points and all firefox plugins disabled, but what you say is 100% true
Recent changes made to this website makes it almost impossible to use, this could very well be the last time I login. If these changes are reverted to what we had 10 years ago, then maybe I will come back :(
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I now use Brave Browser, basically only for /.
Dark times when you have to find a browser that works with a webpage. It used to be that people just read the web standards and things worked. We now have too many cretins thinking they can write software these days.
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Exactly.
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You didn't answer the question. So KDE and GNOME suck. What are these tons of desktop environment that don't suck, and aren't just GNOME/KDE forks, or more GTK/GObject crap that may as be GNOME anyway?
People are really good at saying things suck, but terrible at actually giving viable alternatives.
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There is a modern cde inspired desktop, xfce, or pretty much anything that was good enough in the 80s and 90s and has had a release this decade.
My advice for all technology is to use whatever(1) has an active community and predates computers being cool.
You can see the guideline holds for Slashdot, it came about right as normies were getting their first e-pc or the local cable guy "free trialed" them into the information age. It's right on the cusp so it's slightly shitty but still hangin in there.
Ive rece
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Can you name some of those "tons of desktop environments" that aren't niche products that you need to be a masochist to use
Hah - Real users, use nothing but terminal. If you use any desktop at all, you're a poser, and should get back to Windows, then stop bothering the real Linux adults with your childish approach to computing.
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I disagree. Being able to have multiple xterms with different sizes and font size on screen is nice.
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I disagree. Being able to have multiple xterms with different sizes and font size on screen is nice.
I take it you do know I was making a joke.
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Here is a small, incomplete list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
I guess you are too helpless to even ask an Artificial Idiot that question, so let me help you out.
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What a stupid, useless, insulting response, not that I'd expect better from you.
FreeBSD for the win! (Score:2)
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I also wish that applications that advertised that they work on Windows, MacOS and Linux also worked on the xBSDs. At least the root ones - FreeBSD and NetBSD. I also wish that there were Type 1 BSD-based hypervisors: BHyve is Type 2, while Proxmox and ESXi are both Linux based
On, this story, it's just about the login manager, but as far as BSD goes, some years ago, I used to use PC-BSD while it lasted. It had a beautiful package installer called PBI (Push-Button Interface), and it had Lumina as the de
Systemd is sabotage (Score:3, Flamebait)
What's surprising that some allegedly intelligent allegedly educated allegedly software-literate people don't grasp this. EVERYTHING that Poettering has ever touched should be ripped out and discarded, and he should be blacklisted for life from any/all participation in anything related to open source.
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+3 -> Insightful, Informative and Funny
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There's a lot of masochistic idiots here who love to forget everything Microsoft has done as soon as they have done it. To them Halloween is just a time to see some tits. But TBF, there have always been Microsoft fanboys here, so at least this is not new. There have always been tons of Slashdotters happy to punch themselves in the balls.
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I don't really give a fuck how one feels about systemd. Love it. Hate it. Doesn't matter to me. If you think it's sabotage, it's because you're a fucking moron.
Re: Systemd is sabotage (Score:2)
Every single thing you say is because you're a fucking moron.
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lol, +3 flamebait. Haven't seen that in a while. Truth is always ugly to those who deny Truth. Should be +5 flamebait, but Slashdot itself appears to be having issues.
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Facts are what is actually real.
If you think systemd is sabotage, it's because you're a fucking moron.
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Truth is the weird belief system you've come up with to help you process the big scary world around you.
Except I do something that can be incredibly uncomfortable at times: I inspect Reality to ensure that the Truths I see are real from all perspectives. I fail a lot, but I try.
If you think systemd is sabotage, it's because you're a fucking moron.
It is easy to draw that conclusion; however, I never actually did. SystemD is a terrible system for many reasons and some people appear to unusually motivated in supporting it, so it is easy to draw a conclusion of sabotage.
Long story short, there is nothing organic about SystemD at all and in fact, appears to be shoved on us with grea
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Long story short, there is nothing organic about SystemD at all and in fact, appears to be shoved on us with great force. I wonder why that is....
It wasn't shoved on anyone.
A dude at Redhat wrote it, Redhat adopted it for its platforms because it filled a need. Other distributions adopted it because they agree.
It's that fucking simple.
Saying it was shoved on you with great force is like saying a President was. There was a system that selected it. Your participation in that system was optional. There was always a chance, that even if you did participate in that system, you weren't going to win the vote.
Distributions that adopted systemd have corp
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From https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/faq/ :
1.1. What is FreeBSD?
FreeBSD is a versatile and open-source UNIX®-like operating system known for its exceptional stability, security, and performance.
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FreeBSD is descended from real UNIX but is not today considered real UNIX because it hasn't had a certification in a while, because those cost money.
Being a real UNIX is no longer actually relevant because Linux is now the big daddy in Unixland. It's a talking point without a point.
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We had this discussion some days back in the thread about the end of life of HP/UX. Someone mentioned that the only thing that could strictly be called "Unix" using the old Unix System Labs definition would be any SVR4 based editions, such as Solaris, and thereby, their FOSS versions like OpenIndiana and Illumos. BSDs wouldn't qualify, since they didn't emerge from the USL code
It's another thing that all the BSDs and Linux's would pass the entire X/Open suite of tests that have to be passed for Unix cer
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Isn't macOS still certified as Unix?
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It's a NEW project! (Score:5, Informative)
plasma-login-manager exists since march 2025. "Drops support" is a big headline for a project that exists for less than a year.
yes it was forked from SDDM. Yes BSD support might have been already there. logind helps support the login process, why not use it? It's a dbus API, BSD can have its own implementation. Same as it uses the Linux DRM stack for video drivers.
Here's why it exists: https://blog.davidedmundson.co... [davidedmundson.co.uk]
No it doesn't (Score:2)
FreeBSD users can still run the KDE Plasma desktop environment and continue using SDDM, the current login manager that works just fine on such systems.
I stopped using SDDM on Devuan because it was causing me login problems. I switched to slim, and am not having any of those problems any more. Fuck SDDM and fuck anyone who makes their software depend on systemd on purpose even harder.
Now, anyone know how to make slim launch a specific DE when you don't select one? Because it's shit too, it doesn't even remember which DE I selected last time.
Not accurate title (Score:2)
SDDM, the earlier KDE login manager, did (and still does) work on operating systems without systemd. PLM is new and never included support for non-systemd.
IBM will effectively own Linux and will kill BSDs (Score:2)
It is a slow process, but it's working.
SystemD dependency will slowly infect everything in Linux.
At that point, FreeBSD Linux compatibility layer will no longer work.
If Linux software does not run on the BSDs, then the BSDs are dead.
Linux, as we have known it, will also be dead. IBM will control all Linux.
IBM has been working on this for decades.
Use lightdm (Score:2)
I tried sddm and it didn't work as good as lightdm. It doesn't matter that lightdm not fully fits the environment, when you only see it as login screen.
KDE disagrees with this entire story (Score:2)
The official KDE toot [floss.social] says it's a misunderstanding.
I've been using Plasma on FreeBSD (with SDDM) for several years now, so this matters to me.