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Running Mac OS X Binaries With NetBSD

Posted by Hemos on Sun Jan 05, 2003 10:57 AM
from the making-it-work dept.
An anonymous reader writes "KernelTrap has an interesting article about an effort to add a Mach and Darwin binary compatibility layer to NetBSD. The project has evidently already made a fair amount of progress, currently working to stabilize the WindowServer emulation portion that will then allow NetBSD to run Mac OS X graphical applications."
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  • Fantastic (Score:4, Funny)

    by Evil Adrian (253301) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:02AM (#5019741) Homepage
    That's great, really, but what is there to discuss? Now we can run apps from OS X on OS Y (my apologies), happy day. Next topic!
    • Re:Fantastic by vesamies (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @12:10PM
      • Re:Fantastic by demon (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @03:10PM
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  • Great idea (Score:1, Redundant)

    by nurb432 (527695) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:02AM (#5019744) Homepage Journal
    Now one can run native Xapps, windows AND OSX apps on a unix box.. ( in theory at least )

    Best of all the worlds combined. Run the app you need, on an OS you can trust.

    • Re:Great idea by __past__ (Score:3) Sunday January 05 2003, @11:21AM
      • Re:Great idea by Pius II. (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @12:20PM
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    • Re:Great idea (Score:4, Informative)

      by AtATaddict (531517) on Sunday January 05 2003, @01:09PM (#5020348)
      Umm.... you could just buy a Mac and VirtualPC, then install Xfree86 in rootless mode. Seems like a simpler means to the stated end, considering that a Mac running Mac OS X is a "unix box".
      [ Parent ]
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    • Re:Great idea by kraksmoka (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @01:40PM
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    • Re:Great idea by DeadInSpace (Score:1) Monday January 06 2003, @03:25AM
  • Neat but... (Score:2)

    by MBCook (132727) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:03AM (#5019747) Homepage
    That's pretty cool, but personally I'd probably just run OS X, it's a very nice OS. I can see where this would be nice though. Now if they can make this run on x86s (I know, VERY though, that requires emulating a ton more stuff) then I'll rush to download it.
    • Re:Neat but... by fdisk3hs (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @11:22AM
      • Re:Neat but... by Mononoke (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @11:39AM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Neat but... by Octorian (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @12:18PM
        • Re:Neat but... by Stonent1 (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @01:39PM
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  • Linux port? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Selanit (192811) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:04AM (#5019751)
    Very cool. I wonder if it could be ported to Linux once they've got working okay on FreeBSD. Then Linux would be able to run Mac OS X apps -- the Mac OS X versions of Photoshop and Word come to mind. One major barrier to the adoption of Linux on the desktop is the percieved lack of familiar applications, and Photoshop and Word are high on the list. Word has been pretty well taken care of by the Crossweaver WINE stuff, but Photoshop is still missing. Gimp is great and all, but most graphics professionals would rather keep using the package they're already familiar with than try to learn a whole new one, which is frankly often not as capable as Photoshop.
    • Re:Linux port? by bconway (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @11:27AM
    • Re:Linux port? by damiam (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @11:33AM
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    • OK, but... by caveat (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @11:40AM
      • Re:OK, but... by SubtleNuance (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @12:17PM
        • Re:OK, but... by Ponty (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @12:34PM
          • Re:OK, but... by Reality Master 101 (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @01:33PM
            • Re:OK, but... by SubtleNuance (Score:1) Monday January 06 2003, @07:44AM
              • Re:OK, but... by Reality Master 101 (Score:3) Monday January 06 2003, @12:51PM
          • Re:OK, but... by demon (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @03:20PM
            • Re:OK, but... by Ponty (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @03:35PM
              • Re:OK, but... by SubtleNuance (Score:1) Monday January 06 2003, @07:46AM
              • Re:OK, but... by Ponty (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @10:41PM
              • Re:OK, but... by Ponty (Score:2) Monday January 06 2003, @11:29AM
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      • Re:OK, but... by andrewski (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @07:17PM
    • Re:Linux port? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by KAMiKAZOW (455500) <kamikazow@hotmail.com> on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:49AM (#5019920)

      Mac-On-Linux [maconlinux.org]

      What Is Mac On Linux?

      Mac-on-Linux lets you run MacOS under Linux/ppc. MOL runs natively on the processor, i.e. it is very fast. Unlike most mac emulators, MOL can run MacOS 8.6 and later WITHOUT A ROM IMAGE.

      Feature List

      - Supports MacOS 7.5.2 to 9.2.2, 10.1 and 10.2
      - Linux can be booted inside MOL
      - Full screen video
      - MMU accelereaded X video
      - Audio support
      - Block device support (Ide, Scsi, Zip, Jaz)
      - ADB & USB support for mouse and keyboard
      - Ethernet
      - Runs natively - good speed!
      - Very compatible
      - Idle sleep (8.6 or later)
      - Session save and restore (temporary unavailable)
      - AltiVec support
      - Multi-session support


      OK, it's not binary compatibility, but unlike COMPAT_MACH and COMPAT_DARWIN it does already work. But COMPAT_MACH and COMPAT_DARWIN are very interesting and worth keeping an eye on it.


      Oh, BTW.... From the MOL-FAQ:

      Q: Does it run on i386 hardware?
      A: No, MOL can only run on PowerPC hardware since no emulation is performed. However, adding a PowerPC emulator for x86 is under consideration.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Linux port? by Henk Poley (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @01:47PM
        • Re:Linux port? by norwoodites (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @02:34PM
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    • Re:Linux port? by MrWa (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @12:13PM
    • Re:Linux port? by IamTheRealMike (Score:3) Sunday January 05 2003, @12:26PM
      • Re:Linux port? by Graymalkin (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @01:43PM
      • Re:Linux port? by drinkypoo (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @04:00PM
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    • Still wining about lack of Word?! by Paulo Rocha (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @12:44PM
    • Re:Linux port? by charleschuck (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @10:16PM
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  • Time to get a PPC computer (Score:1, Redundant)

    by The_Mutato (631710) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:04AM (#5019752)
    I was thinking of getting a PowerPC computer and install GNU Darwin on it, but unfortunately GNU Darwin is dropping PowerPC and Cocoa support, so it is kind of useless. Considering that NetBSD runs just about every computer out there, the ability to run OSX binaries is greatly appreciated. I really hopes this becomes popular and that is really DOES run OSX binaries well, cuz then I'll be VERY happy. Mmm. OSX compatiblilty...
  • That's great news but... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by guroove (231050) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:05AM (#5019755) Homepage
    It's only the NetBSD/powerpc port. The biggest problem with MacOSX is that it only runs on Macs. If I'm going to pay all that money for a shiny new Mac, I'm going to run Apple's shiny new operating system.
  • That's awesome (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Burgundy Advocate (313960) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:06AM (#5019760) Homepage
    But one question: is there anything Apple can do to stop this?

    If you remember, they've been *very* anal in the past about some things they consider to be "their stuff", such as the look and feel of the OS. I can't see them just sitting around and watching while all their OS capabilities are matched (or, for that matter, exceeded).

    If they sent C&D letters for freakin' themes, I doubt they'll just sit around while their API is emulated. They've show themselves to be rather devious, and I'd be a little worried if I was a NetBSD developer.
  • Now look what you did (Score:5, Funny)

    by eyeball (17206) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:08AM (#5019762) Homepage Journal
    Oh now look what you did: You woke the swarming team of Apple lawers on a beautiful sunday morning. They're going to be extra pissed.

  • Of course it runs NetBSD! (Score:4, Funny)

    by RAMMS+EIN (578166) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:08AM (#5019763) Homepage Journal
    Or should that me...of course NetBSD runs it? Whew...imagine the possibilities. NetBSD runs on next to anything, and can run binaries in all those formats. /me installs NetBSD on his watch and tries to load Mail.app Dangit! Doesn't work. What crap is this???
  • by Ars-Fartsica (166957) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:09AM (#5019769)
    Taken to its logical extreme, it appears that these guys would create a de facto x86 OSX. What would be missing? Obviously the OSX UI (could easily be cloned)...and some multimedia stuff. What else?
  • You still need a PowerPC machine (Score:5, Informative)

    by zubernerd (518077) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:11AM (#5019778) Homepage
    to use this, since it is only binary compatability. So You will still need to buy PowerPC based computers. And who is one of the largest and most noted for selling powerPC based PCs... Apple Computer; so why not just run MacOS X?
    I know you can buy third party PowerPC computer, but they are more expense than Apple's machines.
    I do appricated their effort, it is probably a good exercise in programming skill.
    It would be useful if it was on x86, but there are plenty of problems with that; see
    http://www.emaculation.com/ppc.shtml [emaculation.com]


    (This is not a flame, just an observation)
  • Nifty. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:13AM (#5019786)
    Which will come first - Apple cracking down or them getting WindowServer to run on i386? Some info from http://hcpnet.free.fr/applebsd.html [hcpnet.free.fr]

    What works?

    On NetBSD/i386: nothing. On NetBSD/powerpc, most UNIX binaries, such as ls, sh, or vi will work. No Graphical User Interface (GUI) based program will work for now. We are able to startup WindowServer up to the first attemps to use the IOKit. See the kernel traces for WindowServer and for mach_init to discover how far we have been.

    Here is what have been implemented so far:

    Mach-O binaries loading

    Mach system calls handling

    Minimal Mach ports, messages and rights support, so that simple program are able to link and run.

    Signals handling (except for siginfo) Minimal multithreading support

    Support in ktrace/kdump to display Mach messages (useful for debugging)

    Hacks to get mach_init starting (and to get it behaving as bootstrap mach_init)

    Support for port rights carried by Mach messages
    Here is what is in the TODO list:

    Implement Mach notifications for destroyed ports, dead names, and no sender ports

    Re-implement enough of Darwin's IOKit to get

    WindowServer actually displaying something.

    Use COMPAT_MACH for COMPAT_OSF1 (Tru64 binary emulation on NetBSD/alpha), to get multithreading working.

    Get Darwin binaries to link and run on NetBSD/i386

  • What about... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Squidgee (565373) <squidgeeOO1@@@hotmail...com> on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:16AM (#5019800)
    Running Gnustep [gnustep.org] on NetBSD? It has most of the NEXTStep/OS X libs already ported over to Linux (And therefore easily ported to NetBSD)...
    • Re:What about... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by LizardKing (5245) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:23AM (#5019826) Homepage

      Running Gnustep on NetBSD? It has most of the NEXTStep/OS X libs already ported over to Linux (And therefore easily ported to NetBSD)...

      GNUStep is already in the NetBSD packages collection, in several packages split across devel and x11. Install it along with WindowMaker and you've got a convincing NeXT clone ...

      Chris

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:What about... (Score:5, Informative)

      by SiMac (409541) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:56AM (#5019941) Homepage
      GNUStep allows for source-level compatibility. This is good for people who plan on targeting Mac OS X as well as Linux, but it's not good for people who want to run Mac OS X apps that run on Mac OS X but not on Linux, such as the Mac OS X window server and Finder. These applications would never be ported to GNUStep, as easy as it is, because Apple wouldn't do it. In addition, this should allow Carbon applications as well as Cocoa applications to run on NetBSD.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:What about... by anarkhos (Score:2) Wednesday January 08 2003, @03:16AM
  • by Znonymous Coward (615009) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:17AM (#5019810) Journal
    This is a very cool idea. However, I'm willing to bet it won't look as nice as this [apple.com].

    This will be one of those things where it's cool because you can do it, but is there really any reason to do it? Kinda like Mac on Linux [maconlinux.org].

    • MOL (Score:4, Interesting)

      by dmaxwell (43234) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:59AM (#5019955)
      Um...I use MOL and have found it to be far from pointless. I use MOL mostly to run a FirstClass groupware client. The reason why I run Linux on a Pismo Powerbook is that I have an environment mostly identical to my x86 Linux machine at home. This means Linux largely frees me from worrying about underlying architecture (Wine and so forth aside). I have not found OSX to be so insanely great that I should blow away my Linux partition. Believe it or not there are good reasons to prefer Linux over OSX.

      I have also found MOL to be far more reliable than Classic on OSX. Classic is much slicker in that OS 9 apps run directly on the Quartz desktop and one can cut and paste between apps. This also means it is more complex and therefore failure prone. My boss has no end of trouble with it. Classic icons go missing or change themselves into another apps icons. Some Classic apps will lock and won't release control to the Aqua UI. This means the machine is locked up for end user intents and purposes. Classic inflicts HFS metadata problems and some instability on OS X and kills much of OS X advantages if one has to make heavy use of OS <=9 apps. On the other hand if the OS 9 in my MOL sessions screws up then I can kill it and restart without affecting my Linux session. Since I boot my MOL session from an image I have an advantage normally only associated with virtual PC. If that boot image gets messed up, I can replace it from a backup quickly. Incidentally, MOL is very close to running OS X acceptably...eye candy and all.

      MOL is can also be used as a user mode Linux. One can boot another acceptably fast Linux inside a virtual machine. This is useful for things like kernel development. MOL is far from pointless.
      [ Parent ]
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    • Re:I wonder if it will look as good as Aqua? by killerc (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @12:05PM
    • Re:I wonder if it will look as good as Aqua? by IamTheRealMike (Score:2) Sunday January 05 2003, @12:31PM
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  • Would It Be Faster Than OS X? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Bones3D_mac (324952) on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:23AM (#5019825)
    I wonder if this could be used to get an increase in speed for running OS X apps without the overhead of the OS X GUI? If it eliminates the eye candy effects, I'd bet it'd be noticeably faster.
  • The Coolness (Score:1)

    by Jeedo (624414) <(asdfasdfasdfasd ... sdfasdf.com.is.o> on Sunday January 05 2003, @11:32AM (#5019859) Homepage
    If they'd get it running on x86 the slowness would most certanly be outweighted by the coolness.
  • Not what Apple wanted (Score:2, Interesting)

    by porkface (562081) on Sunday January 05 2003, @12:22PM (#5020074) Journal
    I get the feeling this isn't the direction Apple had in mind when they released all that code. I got the feeling they wanted people working on compatibility layers for Darwin, not for non-Apple OSes. I think Apple has the ability to pull the plug at any time, so it might be nice to see some of this work going both ways.

    Most FreeBSD users I know have no interest in Photoshop or Office anymore now that the alternatives are as mature as they are. I think users of any BSD would enjoy this new compatibility, but I think it could be just as valuable to everyone (except MS) if MacOS X gained some compatibility layers.

  • iTunes? (Score:1)

    by gh0ul (71352) <jdfmcok@g m a i l . c om> on Sunday January 05 2003, @12:31PM (#5020122) Homepage Journal
    What about apps like iTunes, or iCal... wonder if those will work.. if it can do graphical apps, keep in mind there is Office v.X for MacOS X.. does this mean Word on BSD?!

    • Re:iTunes? by andrewski (Score:1) Sunday January 05 2003, @08:00PM
  • ah How DUMB are slashdoters? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by linuxislandsucks (461335) on Sunday January 05 2003, @12:55PM (#5020263) Homepage Journal
    A question..

    The status report link is from 1/2002...

    Did anybody bother to read it before posting?

    70 people so far did not..

    The actual project ot watch is not NetBSd..in that they don't have the nice Apple relationship like Darwin does..

    In fact if my memory is right the proejct was stopped because they were duplicating Darwin's efforts..

    To see if MacOSx will run under intel machines check Darwin porject site not NetBSD!

    Come on People read once in awhile ..it will not harm you!

    Show yourself to better than those wintel geeks who don't even read but jsut spout what MS Gates wants..

  • by SKicker (27704) on Sunday January 05 2003, @01:38PM (#5020528)
    OK, this is probably a stupid idea but..

    Anyone know what kind of speed a powerpc emulator running on a x86 would get?

    If this OSX apps on BSD/PowerPC jazz works, what would you get if you coupled it to a powerpc to x86 emulator and had OSX running on a x86?

    Even if it ran at half the speed you might end up getting a cheaper 'mac' because x86 hardware is cheaper?
  • by GiMP (10923) on Sunday January 05 2003, @01:41PM (#5020547) Homepage
    Realizing the 'open source' (sort of) nature of Darwin, I've thought of doing this myself (for linux).. but just didn't have them time.

    For those who think this is a dumb idea.. you're not seeing the bigger picture. Currently, MacOS X only runs on G3 and G4 apple machines designated by Apple unless you boot Linux and install Mac On Linux (similiar to Plex86 for PPC). If you can run OSX applications on Linux, NetBSD, etc.. then you wouldn't need the overhead of a VM. Your RS6000 could run OSX with minimum overhead. From NetBSD you could run from the same machine, binaries compiled for: OSX, Linux, FreeBSD, and NetBSD.

    Personally, I don't like OSX; However, I wouldn't mind being able to run natively on Linux: Internet Explorer, Quarx Express, etc.. Not to mention that Quartz is a pretty neat looking, X11 compatable (with Xfree86-rootless) windowing system.

    This is more important for Linux than NetBSD, only because NetBSD currently has poor support for devices on many PowerPC machines (compared to Linux), especially laptops.
  • by NynexNinja (379583) on Sunday January 05 2003, @04:08PM (#5021222)
    I'll take a good quote from the article: "If we could run Photoshop or any of the commercial Apps this would be worth something, but to run X Window apps many people already offer their apps in a native format so this thing would be as useless as a snow shovel in Arizona."
  • by Mignon (34109) <satan@programmer.net> on Sunday January 05 2003, @08:12PM (#5022532)
    Every project needs a cool name. WINE is for running Win(dows) binaries. So what to call this?

    How about "OSXE"? Pronounced "Oh sexy."

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