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FreeBSD 7.1 Released

Posted by CmdrTaco on Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:10 AM
from the for-the-1337-amongst-us dept.
Sol-Invictus writes "The FreeBSD Release Engineering Team is pleased to announce the availability of FreeBSD 7.1-RELEASE. This is the second release from the 7-STABLE branch which improves on the functionality of FreeBSD 7.0 and introduces some new features. Some of the highlights: The ULE scheduler is now the default in GENERIC kernels for amd64 and i386 architectures. The ULE scheduler significantly improves performance on multicore systems for many workloads. Support for using DTrace inside the kernel has been imported from OpenSolaris. DTrace is a comprehensive dynamic tracing framework. A new and much-improved NFS Lock Manager (NLM) client. Boot loader changes allow, among other things, booting from USB devices and booting from GPT-labeled devices. KDE updated to 3.5.10, GNOME updated to 2.22.3. DVD-sized media for the amd64 and i386 architectures."
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Related Stories

[+] A Taste of FreeBSD With VirtualBSD 43 comments
ReeceTarbert writes "If you wanted to try FreeBSD but didn't have the right hardware, or enough time to make it useful on the desktop, VirtualBSD might fit the bill: it's a VMware appliance based on FreeBSD 7.1-RELEASE and features the Xfce 4 Desktop Environment and a few of the most common applications to make it very functional right out of the box. If you're curious you can have a look at the screenshots, or proceed to the download page and grab the torrent file right away. (Note: VirtualBSD also works in VirtualBox 2.x as long as you create a new virtual machine and select the virtual disk from the archive instead of creating a new one)."
[+] FreeBSD 7.2 Released 204 comments
An anonymous reader writes "The FreeBSD Release Engineering Team is pleased to announce the availability of FreeBSD 7.2-RELEASE. This is the third release from the 7-STABLE branch which improves on the functionality of FreeBSD 7.1 and introduces some new features. Some of the highlights: Support for fully transparent use of superpages for application memory; Support for multiple IPv4 and IPv6 addresses for jails; csup(1) now supports CVSMode to fetch a complete CVS repository; Gnome updated to 2.26, KDE updated to 4.2.2; Sparc64 now supports UltraSparc-III processors. For a complete list of new features and known problems, please see the online release notes and errata list." Adds another anonymous reader, "You can grab the latest version from FreeBSD from the mirrors or via BitTorrent. There is also a quick review of the new features and upgrade instructions."
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  • Is there some sort of benchmark comparing FreeBSD 7.1 with other operating systems and distributions? I would be more than happy to run it on a couple of systems that I have hanging around but the user experience needs to be at least comparable to what I'm already running (kubuntu 8.10)

    • by CarpetShark (865376) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:50AM (#26344029)

      Benchmarks between competing free software projects? Don't be silly! Next thing, you'll be advocating some sort of sane system, like choosing the best of breed technology based stats like benchmarks, and uniting behind it! Think what kind of chaos Free Software would be in, if everyone decided that OpenGL was THE low-level graphics layer, that gstreamer was THE codec API, that Vala was THE high-level language, that Git was THE modern version control system, or that FUSE was THE place to develop filesystem stuff. Why, you'd have a straightforward stack, with very little bloat, and tons of people honing a single implementation.

      Pandemonium, I tell you.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          Diversity in ideas, yes. Diversity in attempts to improve those ideas, and test implementations, yes. Diversity in implementations of the same concept? That's as silly as encouraging everyone to try to build a suspension bridge in their own wacky way.

      • yeah, but once you get past the learning curve, it becomes very easy and very reliable.

        Actually, I found the documentation well organized (at least for what I used), along with the mailing lists, it ended up having a lower learning curve for me, than for most Linux distros.

          • by coryking (104614) * on Tuesday January 06 2009, @10:45AM (#26343193) Homepage Journal

            As a lover of FreeBSD, I hope the guys in charge never try to "win the desktop". They'd never win and they'd stop paying attention to the stuff that makes it so good for servers. FreeBSD, and the other BSD's for that matter, belong in the data center. I'd argue the same for Linux, but that might get me slaughtered in these parts...

                • by TheRaven64 (641858) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @01:59PM (#26346269) Homepage Journal
                  Depends on your sound card. If you have a card which does hardware mixing, and is supported by ALSA, it works under Linux. If you have every app set up to use PulseAudio, or whatever this week's fad sound daemon is, it works on Linux. If you have a cheap AC97 CODEC which doesn't do hardware mixing, and have applications which just write to /dev/dsp directly, Linux doesn't work. On FreeBSD (since FreeBSD 5), each device that opens /dev/dsp gets its own virtual channel. If the device doesn't do hardware mixing, it falls back to doing it in software. Even with the cheapest sound hardware, you don't have to use a sound daemon on FreeBSD. Applications just use the standard OSS interfaces and it all works. With FreeBSD 4, you needed to manually configure each one to use a separate /dev/dsp.n, but that hasn't been the case for over five years. Last time I tried Linux on my old Thinkpad, it still couldn't have two programs playing sound at the same time unless they were both configured to use the same sound daemon.
  • *Finally* DVD media (Score:5, Informative)

    by jaredmauch (633928) <jared@puck.nether.net> on Tuesday January 06 2009, @10:21AM (#26342905) Homepage

    This is one of the better parts of this release. The lack of speed/clue on putting out both CD sized and DVD iso images has been highly frustrating, telling the users to basically "roll-their-own". I've already upgraded a few systems and things appear to be going well.

  • Kind of took them long enough...

    FreeBSD kind of lost me with the 5 and 6 releases. I haven't tried 7, but maybe it's worth a shot again.

    They would be wise to port WAPBL; it looks better than gjournal, seems to perform comparably to Softupdates (which are a data gamble), and doesn't have huge system requirements like ZFS.

      • Been using softupdates on various versions of FreeBSD for years on production web caching servers hosting hundreds of users - I'm also not sure what he means by 'data gamble.'
  • Or does it STILL kill the box every time it receives a fragmented packet?

      • Contributions (Score:5, Interesting)

        by coryking (104614) * on Tuesday January 06 2009, @10:53AM (#26343317) Homepage Journal

        And don't be nervous about making contributions either. My first ports looked like shit, but the port guys were patient and over time I've gotten the hang of the system.

        FreeBSD (and probably the other BSD's) are much easier to work on then the other guys. For starters, since you are using a *system* and not a collection of libraries, all your patches and bug-reports go to the same place [freebsd.org]. In other words, you aren't talking to "the website and the people who maintain the 'tar' utility", you are talking to "the freebsd guys". Your patch for "tar" goes to the same repository as the code for "libc".

        Plus since it is licensed as BSD, you can actually contribute modifications and not worry about the nasty side effects found in other licenses. I've never contributed to a GPL project, but I've contributed tons to BSD projects.

        Bottom line, FreeBSD is a great place to get your feet wet contributing to open source stuff. Good times.

  • I've been using a USB-based FreeBSD5 image for a project for some time now. I wonder what they're talking about with USB boot support.

  • by urbanriot (924981) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:02AM (#26343439)
    I've been sticking with the 6.x branch (6.4 most recently) as it's given me extremely reliable uptime with my Squid proxy servers. FreeBSD 7.0 excited me with their SMP updates and ULE scheduler aiding in performance, however I wasn't convinced that the long standing FreeBSD stability was there after reading a number of newsgroup discussions, and due to its immaturity. Now that 7.1 has been released, I'm going to start taking it more seriously for production use.

    That being said, regarding some of the comments here, FreeBSD (in my opinion) is more suited to uptime, stability, and reliability in servers than it is to offering a performance oriented desktop experience. Want a good starter project? Try to make a FreeBSD stateful firewall with transparent proxy server (pf / squid) for your home using some spare parts you have kicking around.
    • by adri (173121) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @01:14PM (#26345551) Homepage Journal

      Hi!

      I'm one of the Squid developers and I have some experience with FreeBSD :)

      FreeBSD-6 and FreeBSD-7 both rock for Squid (and my squid-2 fork, cacheboy.)

      FreeBSD-7 is pretty scarily scalable when it comes to web stuff. I'm working on threading cacheboy/squid-2 over the next few months enough to take advantage of the parallelism that the FreeBSD guys have introduced into -7 and -current. I've got some test code here for fully transparent web interception caching with FreeBSD-current, and some stuff to use FreeBSD's fantastic POSIX AIO support.

      Its all lookup up, up, up from here. :)

  • by gatkinso (15975) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:15AM (#26343583)

    ...devote my life to Open Source. FreeBSD in particular.

    No real reason why FBSD. I just remember really liking Lehey's 'FreeBSD.'

    Oh well, it's back to Visual C++ for me...

  • by TheGratefulNet (143330) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:38AM (#26343877)

    been a freebsd user since 4.x days.

    I use bsd to run my mail, antispam, dns and other public web services.

    I'd LIKE to also have it be a fast samba server but for some reason, samba on bsd really SUCKS. why is that??

    my similar hardware linux box runs circles all over bsd on samba. that's the last hold-out, really, in wanting to go all-bsd at home.

    is there EVER going to be equiv speed on freebsd as linux has, for smb?

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by TheRaven64 (641858)
          It was covered on Slashdot. Here is a detailed write-up [vnode.ch]. Basically, the problem occurred when seeking to the second entry in a block when the first one had been deleted due to some mismatch between what the kernel did and what libc did. The bug was around 25 years old, and was fixed in May. It only occurred in a very small number of cases, but these cases were common enough for the Samba team to have encountered them and worked around them.
  • by Filiprino (1446377) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @12:37PM (#26344881)
    And this new FreeBSD release can run on Dolby Surround 7.1 systems?.
  • ZFS (Score:4, Informative)

    by AndreR (814444) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @03:03PM (#26347635) Homepage

    FreeBSD is the only distribution, other than Solaris, to have ported and implemented the ZFS filesystem (and no, a FUSE port doesn't count).

    I've been looking forward to build a file server for personal use, and I'm eager to try out ZFS, which really puts FreeBSD high on my small list of candidates for an operating system. I'm going for consumer-grade hardware, and I'll be experimenting with stuff like using CompactFlash cards to store the OS.

    OpenSolaris was my initial choice due to its higher maturity on the ZFS implementation, but I feel it's too constraining. I tried searching around for information about installing the system on flash mediums, information about wear-levelling, filesystems for flash media, and their forums and mailing lists fall short on these topics. The OpenSolaris installer doesn't even allow one to customize the installation, forcing me to install X.org, Gnome, and a ton of other stuff. No thank you, I'd very much like my file server to be command-line only, and to be smaller that your 3.1 gigabyte minimum for an installation.

    As soon as I feel that FreeBSD's implementation of ZFS is stable and feature-rich enough for my needs, I'll definitely be rolling a file server with it. And I don't care if Netcraft disagrees with my decision; I really do feel BSDs deserve more and more notoriety these days.

    • Yeah mean, other than Yahoo, and HotMail before MS took them over and they got super crappy, and a whole bunch of other people? I dunno... no one I guess.

    • Re:Hmmm... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by eldavojohn (898314) * <my/.username@@@gmail.com> on Tuesday January 06 2009, @10:24AM (#26342943) Homepage Journal

      A significant improvement on a crappy OS is still a crappy OS.

      I respectfully disagree. At its first release Linux was probably a crappy OS but each subsequent release grew better and better until it wasn't crappy. Who knows, maybe even Windows 7 will live up to the price they ask for it?

      No flame intended, but really... who uses FreeBSD anymore?

      I certainly don't. But I like the idea of another free operating system for me out there. What would have happened if the courts had screwed Linux and SCO had won and successfully shut down anyone using the Linux kernel? Well, I'd tell you what I would have done: switched all my machines to FreeBSD and recompiled the packages on all the software I used for it. Luckily (and rightfully), I don't have to do this.

      You don't mean to flame but what other reason is there for you to ask who uses FreeBSD? Leave the community alone, there are very few fanboys and annoyances about it ... if they want to continue with their operating system, I say let them! Who knows what it could become one day? I wish the FreeBSD team the best of luck and am certain I have inadvertently gained from them in some way and therefore appreciate all their hard work and efforts.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by samkass (174571)

        Isn't FreeBSD a good chunk of the core of the BSD layer in Apple's XNU (Darwin) kernel and some of the user-space utilities? I'm not sure if it's still true, but my understanding was that a substantial amount of code went in both directions between MacOS X and FreeBSD.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          I think these days the code only goes one way (to Apple) but if some Apple fanboy wants to point me to their recent BSD contributions, I'd be interested in seeing them.
          • by coryking (104614) * on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:06AM (#26343489) Homepage Journal

            Nobody in BSD land gives a shit who does what with code. That is one of the nicest features found in BSD systems--the ecosystem is pretty much free of open-source politics.

            Nobody give a shit if you wrote your patch on a windows system and mailed it to the ports maintainers using outlook. Nobody cares if Apple, Tivo, or Cisco "locks up the code". In fact, better they do. The BSD licence makes it easy for those companies to contribute because they can use FreeBSD and contribute only the parts that aren't special-sauce. Companies *want* to merge their changes in with the mainline, it is expensive to apply patches to every version of FreeBSD. The BSD licence lets paid employees of these companies send in bug-fixes and patches without ensnaring the companies IP in a legal mess. Other licences have a tendancy to be all-or-nothing--either you hold on to your bug-fixes and merge them in for every version or you release your entire codebase to the world. BSD lets you pick and choose what bits can go into the world. Very flexible.

            Bottom line... if Apple wants to use BSD code, who cares. Code is code. It isn't like it has feelings.

            • by GreatBunzinni (642500) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:49AM (#26344017)

              Nobody in BSD land gives a shit who does what with code. That is one of the nicest features found in BSD systems--the ecosystem is pretty much free of open-source politics.

              Nobody give a shit if you wrote your patch on a windows system and mailed it to the ports maintainers using outlook. Nobody cares if Apple, Tivo, or Cisco "locks up the code".

              Oh yes, what a charming little statement. Absolutely nobody from BSD land cares if companies like Cisco run away with BSD's code and never give anything back in return. Not a single grudge at all. Well, except from people like Theo de Raadt. From a Theo de Raadt interview from 2006: [linux.com]

              NF: Lots of hardware vendors use OpenSSH. Have you got anything back from them?

              TdR: If I add up everything we have ever gotten in exchange for our efforts with OpenSSH, it might amount to $1,000. This all came from individuals. For our work on OpenSSH, companies using OpenSSH have never given us a cent. What about companies that incorporate OpenSSH directly into their products, saving themselves millions of dollars? Companies such as Cisco, Sun, SGI, HP, IBM, Siemens, a raft of medium-sized firewall companies -- we have not received a cent. Or from Linux vendors? Not a cent.

              Of course we did not set out to create OpenSSH for the money -- we purposely made it completely free so that the "telnet infrastructure" of the 1980s would die. But it sure is sad that none of these companies return even a fraction of value in kind.

              If you want to judge any entity particularly harshly, judge Sun. Yearly they hold interoperability events, for NFS and other protocols, and they include SSH implementation tests as well. Twice we asked them to cover the travel and accommodation costs for a developer to come to their event, and they refused. Considering that their SunSSH is directly based on our code, that is just flat out insulting. Shame on you Sun, shame, shame, shame.

              That does sound like somebody in the BSD camp does give a shit. In fact, it sounds like the BSD camp does get right out pissed off from the lack of contributions. So, care to retract your statement?

              • No (Score:5, Insightful)

                by coryking (104614) * on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:59AM (#26344173) Homepage Journal

                There is a difference between "You guys aren't playing fair..." and "our operating system is your religion, either embrace it or go away".

                If somebody like $VENDOR_X takes and takes but never contributes even minor shit like bug-fixes to kernel code, they should be called out. But unlike other, more political organizations, you will never see an Anti-$VENDOR_X clause added to a BSD license. That is the important bit.

                BTW, one big peeve in BSD land is when the GPL guys will take BSD code like drivers. The GPL license will "infect" any modifications and prevent those changes from being send back to the original BSD code. Kind of a tease, don't you think?

              • by nschubach (922175) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @12:13PM (#26344415) Journal

                Um... maybe I read it wrong, but he was disgruntled that Sun didn't offer to pay for accommodations... not code. It's pretty fair for him to ask Sun to foot a bill here or there to enable interoperability for their own products. It doesn't sound disgruntling at all really. More of a "shame on you Sun" post as he ended that quote.

                Of course, people read whatever they want to read into things.

        • Re:Hmmm... (Score:5, Funny)

          by Ethanol-fueled (1125189) * on Tuesday January 06 2009, @10:59AM (#26343393) Homepage
          That is true. Unfortunately there will always be the fanboys who proclaim that OSX is BSD, which is like saying that Michael Jackson is a black man.
    • People who like reliable, low maintenance computer systems.

      By what regards is it a crappy OS anyway?

    • Re:Hmmm... (Score:4, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 06 2009, @10:30AM (#26343029)

      Longest uptime in the world, son. Take your tinkertoys and go play with the other kids downstairs, the grownups are talking here.

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by Anonymous Coward

            Netcraft is not reliable anymore. From the site:

            Why do you not report uptimes for Linux 2.6 or FreeBSD 6 ?

            We only report uptimes for systems where the operating system's timer runs at 100Hz or less. Because the TCP code only uses the low 32 bits of the timer, if the timer runs at say 1000Hz, the value wraps around every 49.7 days (whereas at 100Hz it wraps after 497 days). As there are large numbers of systems which have a higher uptime than this, it is not possible to report accurate uptimes for these systems.

            The Linux kernel switched to a higher internal timer rate at kernel version 2.5.26. Linux 2.4 used a rate of 100Hz. Linux 2.6 used a timer at 1000Hz (some architectures were using 1000Hz before this), until the default was changed back to 250Hz in May 2006. (An explanation of the HZ setting in Linux.)

            FreeBSD versions 4 and 5 used a 100Hz timer, but FreeBSD 6 has moved to a customisable timer with a default setting of 1000Hz.

            So unfortunately this means that we cannot give reliable uptime figures for many Linux and FreeBSD servers.

      • by coryking (104614) * on Tuesday January 06 2009, @10:41AM (#26343129) Homepage Journal

        All the BSD's win for man pages that actually contain more information then "man pages are obsolete, please use the info documentation". In FreeBSD the entire core system has documentation. All of it written in the format god intended--roff.

        Did you mention all the man pages are online [freebsd.org] and can be searched by version? Comes in handy when you are still using FreeBSD 6.1-RELEASE.

        And did you mention the fact that BSD's aren't like Linux distros? FreeBSD isn't just a pooling of libraries and code from random people, the core of FreeBSD (shell and userland tools) are all done by the same large team. FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD are *cohesive systems*, not collections.

        Want my year 2009 prediction? This will be the year of the BSD's in the data-center. There is a lot going for BSD based systems, and quite frankly the only reason I can see to go back to a random collection of tools and kernel code (i.e. a Linux distrubtion) is for running code that requires vendor support (Oracle, Dell, etc...). In 2009, I predict (hope) more of these big-name vendors officially support FreeBSD and friends.

        • by OeLeWaPpErKe (412765) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @10:52AM (#26343303) Homepage

          *And* FreeBSD easily beats linux in the networking speeds and firewalling departments. Of course they're lagging behind in hardware support.

          Linux is becoming the new windows

          • by coryking (104614) * on Tuesday January 06 2009, @10:54AM (#26343337) Homepage Journal

            But honestly, FreeBSD is a server OS. And for servers, it has pretty much any driver you need. Granted not all of it is vendor supported binaries (yet, but hopefully someday), but still, if you have a server from *big-co*, odds are good everything will work.

            • Hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)

              by coryking (104614) * on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:38AM (#26343873) Homepage Journal

              There are more important things in the world then how well an operating system does in some assholes random benchmark. If you are standardizing your servers around an operating system based solely on "speed", I question your abilities as a server dude.

              I'll just name one thing, out of many, that are vastly more important than "speed". Stability. No, not "never blue-screens". I'm "does the maintainers of the system make major changes in every single release and then stop supporting older releases". Under this definition of stable, FreeBSD wins over linux hands down. Especially after the "we can't be bothered to maintain a stable branch of the linux kernel, so we will add new shit in with the old all the time". You might get a dozen exciting new bugs and security fixes when you "upgrade" between 2.6.1114492 and 2.6.1114493. In fact, this was one of the major reasons for me dumping linux in the first place. The 2.4.x kernels are the last stable linux kernels out there.

              That is just one example of something more important than "passes 4*10^30 fps in WoW" benchmark.

              As for security? Which is easier to audit and verify? A random pool of code and libraries distributed across hundreds of websites and maintainers, or a cohesive operating system whos entire codebase is in exactly one place [freebsd.org]?

              • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

                by MikeBabcock (65886)

                I'm sorry, those KDE and Gnome versions are some random software the FreeBSD people maintain that have nothing to do with the third party KDE and Gnome systems available on Linux?

                How about SSH? You don't use the OpenSSH maintained by the OpenBSD guys then? This is some other version of SSH that is completely maintained by FreeBSD?

                Stop with the FUD. Maintaining a local code base for applications doesn't change what they are. The Fedora people do the same thing, so does Ubuntu and many other distros. Sla

                • You are correct (Score:5, Informative)

                  by coryking (104614) * on Tuesday January 06 2009, @12:18PM (#26344513) Homepage Journal

                  Everything in the ports tree is essentially random crap. The only thing FreeBSD does is wrap the source code with a (really nice) build system. Ports aren't "stable" the same way the core is. That said, a lot of the big-name stuff like apache has separate ports. For example apache-1.3, apache-2 and apache-2.2 have separate ports (I think there is a port that follows the trunk too).

                  The difference between the BSD's and Linux's are in scope. In FreeBSD there is a whole lot more junk that is maintained by a single group then in most linuxes.

                  But still, you are correct in the "real applications" are all ports.

        • I'd like to see those big (and smaller, too) name vendors support the BSDs a bit better, too. I've always preferred to work with FreeBSD vs. Linux, but I've been settling on Linux for the better 3rd party software/driver support. I've got some projects planned for this year that I would prefer to use a BSD for rather than Linux, but I don't see it happening.
        • by 0racle (667029)

          This will be the year of the BSD's in the data-center.

          Without support from one or a few big vendors, a la Red Hat for Linux, it'll never happen.

          • True (Score:5, Insightful)

            by coryking (104614) * on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:26AM (#26343735) Homepage Journal

            So I'll revise my statement and say this will be the year that more big-name vendors officially support FreeBSD. By "vendor" I mean hardware guys like Dell, IBM or HP, not just software vendors.

            I think while it isn't discussed much, GPLv3 made a lot of vendors think twice about Linux. My gut tells me that you'll quietly see more and more vendors back BSD based systems. There won't be much fanfare about it (the BSD world is pretty chill), but it will just slowly inch forward until most servers wind up running FreeBSD or OpenBSD instead of $RANDOM_COLLECTION_OF_CODE.

            Just a hunch. Times are changing, and I could be wrong...

        • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

          by Anonymous Coward

          FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD are *cohesive systems*, not collections.

          Amusingly, I misread that as:

          FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD are *cohesive systems*, not collisions.

          The worst part was that it made perfect sense when I read it. (!)

        • by ivoras (455934) <(ivoras) (at) (fer.hr)> on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:16AM (#26343605) Homepage
          Also, reading the developer blogs [freebsdish.org] is fun and informative!
        • by CarpetShark (865376) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:42AM (#26343927)

          As someone who both enjoyed discovering GNU Info (as it was about the only part of the GNU platform I could run on a 2MB Amiga 1200), and also enjoyed discovering the quality of FreeBSD's man pages, let me give another perspective:

          There's absolutely no reason not to use HTML for documentation these days. There are plenty of lightweight text-mode browsers that would suffice in emergencies or during ssh sessions, but also nice desktop apps that would let new users browse them and feel at home. More importantly, it supports modern features, like links to the actual organisations online who support a particular app, or where bugs can be reported, links to email, diagrams, unicode for multilingual support, screenreader support, etc.

          Yes, manpages can be nice, and coherent, quality documentation is important. GNU's horrible info browser is certainly not up to it. BUT... let's get with the times. There's no point advocating man pages in the modern world. If you want good docs, argue for good docs in modern formats, not old formats that happen to sometimes have instances of good docs.

          • by Brad_McBad (1423863) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @12:17PM (#26344497)
            The next time I'm remote managing a system on a command line, and need to use a new command I've not used before, I'll be sure and reflect on how it would be better if it were in HTML.

            You'd really happily build window manager dependencies into Gnu/Linux? I mean, you could use lynx, but the presentation would be a lot worse than the current man / info pages...
                  • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

                    You want clickable man pages? Take a look at man.freebsd.org and choose the HTML output format.

                    What was that quote again?
                    Those who don't know UNIX are doomed to reinvent it -- badly ... :-)
          • by coryking (104614) * on Tuesday January 06 2009, @12:05PM (#26344277) Homepage Journal

            (and boy I'm posting in this thread ;-)

            For those who've never used a BSD system but have used Linux, be prepared for the command line to work a little different. BSD utilities are often way more picky about the ordering of arguments.

            With the GNU tools, "chmod 775 * -R" will recurse down a tree and set everything to 775. "chmod -R 775 *" will do the same thing.

            In FreeBSD, only "chmod -R 775 *" will work right.

            In BSD userland, the patten is almost always command [arguments] [strings of goo]. In GNU land, you can usually interchange [arguments] and [string of goo] and get the same result. Some will argue that only the BSD way is proper and the GNU way is sloppy. Whatever your feelings are, if you've gotten used to being sloppy about ordering, it will take some adjustment to get used to BSD tools.

            The good news is the "proper" way will work on either set of tools.

        • Re:Hmmm... (Score:5, Informative)

          by halber_mensch (851834) on Tuesday January 06 2009, @11:36AM (#26343845)

          FreeBSD fanboyz shouldn't go mouthing off about "half-assed" considering the way since 5.x it's crappy smp and threadlocking would seize up tighter than a great-grandma on a straight brick cheese diet with lock-mgr panics. Problem persisted in 7.0, who knows if 7.1 will finally put the issues to rest?

          Are you talking about this SMP [slashdot.org]?

          5.0 was released in January 2003, I think 6 years of passage should have allowed you enough grumping time that you can let it go now. I think you could also take a look in your wayback machine and remember that Linux was not exactly perfect at the time either. FreeBSD 5 did have its teething problems with all of the new technologies introduced, especially KSE and the ULE scheduler, but progress has continued to be made and your unsubstantiated claim otherwise is just the pathetic grumblings of a troglodyte.