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Theo de Raadt On Relicensing BSD Code

Posted by kdawson on Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:02 AM
from the read-the-berne-convention dept.
iBSD writes "KernelTrap has an interesting article in which Theo de Raadt discusses the legal implications of the recent relicensing of OpenBSD's BSD-licensed Atheros driver under the GPL. De Raadt says, 'it has been like pulling teeth since (most) Linux wireless guys and the SFLC do not wish to admit fault. I think that the Linux wireless guys should really think hard about this problem, how they look, and the legal risks they place upon the future of their source code bodies.' He stressed that the theory that BSD code can simply be relicensed to the GPL without making significant changes to the code is false, adding, 'in their zeal to get the code under their own license, some of these Linux wireless developers have broken copyright law repeatedly. But to even get to the point where they broke copyright law, they had to bypass a whole series of ethical considerations too.'"
+ -
story

Related Stories

[+] Technology: Theo de Raadt Responds to Linux Licensing Issues 455 comments
bsdphx writes "While Theo may have a reputation of being "difficult" in some circles, this response to the recent relicensing controversy is thoughtful and well penned. Through this whole process I've learned some new things about both GPL and BSD licensing, and especially about combining the two."
[+] Resolution of BSD-GPL Wireless Code Dispute? 215 comments
An anonymous reader writes "The highly publicized debate between Theo de Raadt and the Software Freedom Law Center seems to have come to an amicable end. SFLC has published its research on the lineage of the ath5k driver and determined who owns which changes. In the end, everyone agreed to license their modifications to the Linux driver under the BSD license, and OpenBSD developers can now reincorporate those improvements into the original code (with the exception of one historically GPL-licensed branch)." The article notes that Theo de Raadt has not responded publicly to this development but that comments on the issue in an OpenBSD Journal forum have been generally positive.
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  • A couple more links: (Score:3, Informative)

    by ak3ldama (554026) <james_akeldama@@@yahoo...com> on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:05AM (#20589365) Homepage Journal

    here's the article on undeadly [undeadly.org] and and here's a synopsis from a misc post [marc.info] An excellent (and apparently sarcastic) quote:

    Reyk can take them to court over this, but he must do it before the year 2047.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:31AM (#20589877)
      The followup comment by Theo [kerneltrap.org] that you mention is in the original linked article, but it's worth posting here in full as it simplifies the issue. In it, Theo states:

      I recognize that writeup about the Atheros / Linux / SFLC story is a bit complex, so I wrote a very simple explanation to someone, and they liked it's clarity so much that they asked me to post it for everyone. Here it is (with a few more changes)
      -----
      starting premise:

      you can already use the code as it is
      steps taken:

      1. pester developer for a year to get it under another license.

      - get told no, repeatedly

      2. climb over ethical fence

      3. remove his license

      - get caught, look a bit stupid

      4. wrap his license with your own

      - get caught, look really stupid

      5. assert copyright under author's license, without original work

      - get caught, look even more stupid

      Right now the wireless linux developers -- aided by an entire team of evidently unskilled lawyers -- are at step 5, and we don't know what will happen next. We wait, to see what will happen.

      Reyk can take them to court over this, but he must do it before the year 2047.

      • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 13 2007, @12:37PM (#20591075)
        That's a good one; a group with no money sues another group with no money. Finally! A legal case that won't involve money!

        Your honor we motion that defendents, if found guilty, should have to apologize and donate 20,000 lines of code to BSD.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:05AM (#20589373)
    I seem to recall a recent incident where the OpenBSD team was caught doing something similar. That they're reacting like scalded cats now seems to be in slightly poor taste, to put it mildly.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by teknopurge (199509)
      Your comment is useless and trollesque without a link.
      • by squiggleslash (241428) * on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:43AM (#20590085) Homepage Journal

        Here you go [undeadly.org].

        Note the difference in terms of how the Linux and OpenBSD communities handled that case.

        1. The Linux community waited until OpenBSD developers were violating copyrights before raising the issue. In this case, the OpenBSD people complained about a diff posted to a mailing list that hadn't even been accepted
        2. The Linux community raised the issue with two relevant mailing lists and a small group of other concerned parties. The OpenBSD people had the supposed BSD violation (that wasn't, because the diff hadn't been accepted at that stage) up on undeadly.org within 24 hours.
        3. The Linux community made no specific allegations, and offered help with completing the driver. The OpenBSD people have essentially insulted the Linux community throughout this discussion.
        And on the defensive side:
        1. The OpenBSD community went through hoops to claim that there never was a copyright violation because, like, the guy who put the code in the CVS repository intended, like, to change it and stuff. The Linux community has generally refrained from claiming that, if accepted, the diffs wouldn't violate any copyrights, except to point out that Theo is overreaching in that some of the files can, actually, be relicensed because they're dual licensed (an argument Theo has tried to counter by making the bizarre claim that a dual licensed file with a specific statement saying that the license of the GPL can be used instead of the BSD license must perpetually remain under the BSD license.)
        2. The OpenBSD community, and Theo in particular, accused the Linux team of being "Inhuman". The Linux developers have made no such insults against their BSD accusers, despite having more cause to.

        Further, to make things even more ridiculous, many on the BSD side claimed at the time of the bcw violation that this was somehow evidence that the BSD license was "superior" because it wasn't viral, and BSD code could be incorporated into Linux without violating any licenses. They're now arguing the exact opposite, some even claiming the BSD license is viral.

        This is pretty straightforward. There are no infringing Linux kernels out there.

        At the same time, the level of hysteria raised by the OpenBSD community, and the distortion of truth and double standards exhibited by its leadership, not to mention the insults and constant attempts to alienate similar groups, really raise serious questions as to OpenBSD's long term viability. Cooler heads need to prevail, and make a commitment to fork the project should its current leadership continue to spiral out of control.

        OpenBSD is a respected operating system that is relied upon by communities and businesses across the world. It deserves, and demands, a stable leadership committed to creating the best operating system they can. The current OpenBSD leadership isn't that. This must change.

        • by thsths (31372) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:57AM (#20590363)
          > really raise serious questions as to OpenBSD's long term viability. Cooler heads need to prevail, and make a commitment to fork the project should its current leadership continue to spiral out of control.

          You can't be serious. Another fork of BSD? I mean there are only 4 widely recognised free forks out there, plus lots more that may not be open, not recognizable as BSD, or not significant...

          Actually I have the feeling that you are a secret Linux agent, trying to splinter the forces of BSD. Yes, that would make sense.
          • by IgnoramusMaximus (692000) on Thursday September 13 2007, @12:12PM (#20590621)

            You can't be serious. Another fork of BSD? I mean there are only 4 widely recognised free forks out there, plus lots more that may not be open, not recognizable as BSD, or not significant... Actually I have the feeling that you are a secret Linux agent, trying to splinter the forces of BSD. Yes, that would make sense.

            Perheaps the BSD crowd should do some soul-searching and ponder why there are four forks, each maintained by a crew which appears to be violently hostile to all the others (not to mention all "outsiders" and "interlopers", such as those building other Unix-like operating systems, say, Linux).

            As an aid in your investigation, pay attention to these unseemly feral cries of "Mine! Mine! Mine!" emanating from the land of the supposedly "most free" (to use by anyone for anything, even closed source projects!) license, brought on by this very incident.

            All proving to be rather amusing (and quite educational) experience.

              • by IgnoramusMaximus (692000) on Thursday September 13 2007, @12:47PM (#20591267)

                Honestly, I think Linux is just as vicious towards BSD as BSD is towards Linux.

                That might be true in many cases, but IMHO it is a mere reaction which occurs because the GPL crowd is rather frequently confronted with various truly ridiculously hypocritical stances by the BSD proponents. Such as the one we are discussing.

                As to why so many forks, the answer is definitely not technical as the distinctions you indicated make no sense. One can have fast and portable OS, just as well as one can have SMP capable and fast one, one with small memory footprint and portability. Etc and so on.

                The true answer is different: Towering, Monumental, Gigiantic Egos of the various participants. Egos which have to be kept apart at astronomical distances lest explosions brighter then the Sun were to immediately occur otherwise.

                • by squiggleslash (241428) * on Thursday September 13 2007, @03:20PM (#20594153) Homepage Journal

                  I think you might be able to safely say that for the NetBSD/OpenBSD split, but if you combine those as one project that went wrong due to egos, you're still looking at three separate development paths that evolved because of technical issues. The NetBSD people were just trying to get their system up and running on their hardware, and would have had problems keeping up with the FreeBSD development schedule. OpenBSD grew out of that, but also reflects Theo's (rightful) concern with code quality (which has ended up translating into security, a term easier for outsiders to understand.)

                  The major odd one out indeed is DragonFly BSD, it's an entirely different design and required a significant amount of experimentation of the type you just can't do on a live kernel. It's hard to see how the design could have occurred within the confines of the FreeBSD project. In some ways, it's a shame we're not seeing that kind of imaginative design work resulting in the occasional Linux fork. It would be a shame if this kind of innovation was stifled because people were worried that others might see them as ego maniacs, and there's no practical way to incorporate that work into an existing project. Matt Dillon certainly doesn't deserve that.

              • Re:RTFA, dammit (Score:4, Insightful)

                by Carewolf (581105) on Thursday September 13 2007, @04:40PM (#20595435) Homepage
                The BSD license clearly doesn't restrict your choice of license for any derivative works you may make.
                Which is exactly the point. Theo is arguing that Linux is not allowed to use GPL for their derived product, thus arguing against the spirit of BSD licenses ( and making no sense).
      • by Hal_Porter (817932) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:44AM (#20590093)
        Personally, I want to stick Theo and RMS in a cage and see who lasts longest...

        Interesting

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_de_Raadt [wikipedia.org]
        vs.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman [wikipedia.org]

        Theo is younger (39 vs 54) and fitter than Stallman. More aggressive too - Stallman seems like a fat old hippy who'd go into the cage expecting to talk his way out of it. Theo's got a nasty streak and he'd instinctively grasp the rule that two men enter, one man leaves. Life's always been like that for Theo it's just that up to now the violence has been sublimated. Finally, even though he hides it well, the Winged Monkeys of proprietary software would help Theo if things got tough, especially against Stallman.
        • by jadavis (473492) on Friday September 14 2007, @12:59AM (#20599869)
          before [OpenBSD] destroys any ounce of credibility it still has.

          The developers of, among many other achievements, OpenSSH, have more than an ounce of credibility. Any attempt to marginalize a group that's produced such a vital, omnipresent contribution is an attempt to rewrite history.

          We should remember that security is hard and that to produce secure software requires not just the will but also rare ability.

          Your other criticisms may be valid, but we should remember who we're talking about here. Security experts are among the most difficult developers to replace. There's a reason that we're talking about OpenBSD on slashdot right now: the viability of the project could have an impact on many people.
  • by Recovering Hater (833107) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:07AM (#20589409)
    I have a feeling that the Linux community will hesitate to admit any wrong doing here. Not that I am anti-linux or trolling on purpose. I just know that Theo has a bit of a reputation and Linux zealots being what they are... ah well. Nothing like OSS license holy wars.
  • Still confused (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Kelson (129150) * on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:08AM (#20589421) Homepage Journal
    For the last decade+, people have been claiming that the BSD licenses are more free than the GPL, because they effectively place no restrictions on what you can do with the code. Now we're being told that there are restrictions on what you can do with the code.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      It's still a license. The only way to make code truly unencumbered is to release it into the public domain. Then anyone can do anything they damn well please with it.
    • Re:Still confused (Score:4, Informative)

      by teknopurge (199509) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:23AM (#20589707) Homepage
      The BSD licnese header and author's comments must remain in place. That's all. The only reason to remove it is to pass it off as your own.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by fsmunoz (267297)

        In this case, it seems that the GPL zealots have failed to comply even with that requirement in their zeal to rebrand the code as GPL.

        They didn't failed to comply with the BSD licence because they weren't bound by it but by the GPL, since it was a dual-licensed work with a "you can choose which license applies" wording. And this is really the most important issue here, Theo's interpretation of dual licensed software as a kind of "you must comply with both", and this is what warrants further discussion. Saying that "zealots failed to comply" assumes that a regular BSD licensed software was changed, when this is *not* the case.

          • Re:Still confused (Score:4, Informative)

            by fsmunoz (267297) <fsmunozNO@SPAMmember.fsf.org> on Thursday September 13 2007, @12:13PM (#20590637) Homepage

            Isn't one of the tennets of the GPL that when you distribute the code, you must confer the same rights onto the next person that you were given with the code? I would argue that includes the option to use the code under the BSD license rather than the GPL (given that GPL is more restrictive). If you fail to include the option to license under BSD in your distribution, you are violating the spirit if not the letter of the GPL by removing freedoms which you previously had been granted.
            Er, that would basically mean that dual-licensed code can't be part of BSD "core", since using the same "you should give the choice to the next developer" logic would mean that anyone who touches it must also present the GPL as an option, thereby making it impossible to use for any proprietary development. Since dual-licensed code isn't considered as purely GPL code in terms of inclusion the OpenBSD - amongst others - I assume that they know that redristribution and modifications *can* be made *solely* under the BSD licensed *without* having to offer the GPL as an option to the end user.
            • Re:Still confused (Score:4, Insightful)

              by synthespian (563437) on Thursday September 13 2007, @01:54PM (#20592461)
              although I imagine that the authors opinion is only partially relevant: it's written right there that it's "you can choose to be covered by either the GPL or the BSD, at you option", so the authors opinion only serves as an aditional guarantee.

              No it's not irrelevant. The author grants you Copyright. You do not take it. There's a difference. Furthermore, the author was very explicit in his intention in the mailing list. It's very clear for all to see. I'll bet that this would make a reasonable case in any country signataire of the Berne convention. Of course, it will be up to a judge to decide. But if you ever used a lawyer's service, unless a judge is completely detached form reality, a party's intention is always taken into consideration and evem more so when he feels harm has been done to him or because of him.

              Forthermore, you can't strip the BSD license. The license says so. The BSD license does not license the license as that would void it (and would be utterly ilogical). The license licenses the code. The license says: "do what you want to this code, but maintain the Copyright and this note." It's not so hard to understand. Yeah, I know...reality sucks. GPL zealots do not like the conundrum this situation poses to their beloved moralisitic philosophy written in stone.

              In fact, this would be a very interesting case on Copyright laws and open source development, specifically as it regards the fashion in which these people work (distributed tools, mailing-lists...). I'm actually suspicious that some lawyers in the Linux camp want to take this to court...Maybe that's the root cause of all these US lawyers giving strange advice.

  • by b1ufox (987621) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:08AM (#20589423) Homepage Journal
    Another trolling article submitted to /. and sadly chosen too.
    Yesterday RMS, today Theo, tomorrow Jeff Jones...

    Too much trolls on /. these days. /. is turning into osnews in terms of trolling stories.

    Nice going, keep it up troll feeders.
  • Not again! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by xophos (517934) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:10AM (#20589451)
    Could you please cut out these stories? He didn't say anything new. The Point was allready made. The mistake has long since been corrected and so on...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:11AM (#20589455)
    Its been done for over 10 years (GPL grabs of BSD style code).

    i once saw with utter shock that someone took code from Darin Adler nearly 10 years ago

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darin_Adler [wikipedia.org]

    I noticed that I saw his stuff slapped with GPL viral license and then I compared to earlier nearly IDENTICAL source code files where he specifically went out of the way to put the GPL on it.

    Darin wanted his code on this one utility module to be 100% free.

    I guess the Linux camp has been doing this for over 10 years now. So immorality is nothing new.

    Wasn't all the hard work of SCSI in BSD lifted ages and ages ago too?

    So sad. I used to respect the GPl until I saw how the zealots will grab anything and call it their own and even claim copyright OWNERSHIP over code not alterred materially other than swapping out the legal license.

    • by TerranFury (726743) on Thursday September 13 2007, @12:32PM (#20590949)

      Darin wanted his code on this one utility module to be 100% free.

      And it is!

      The fact that somebody licensed a derivative work under the GPL in no way changes the license on Darin's code. Darin's code is still BSD and always will be, and from now into perpetuity, anybody can use Darin's code however they want, just like he'd intended.

      What people can't do is use the derivative work however they want -- like, in a proprietary piece of software. But that's another issue! Some guy started with Darin's code and made something else out of it; let's call that guy "Bob." It's really just Bob's changes to Darin's code that are GPLed.

      You see? Nothing the GPL people can do or have done will change the fact that anybody can get Darin's code under the BSD license.

      The problem is this damn word "relicensing" we keep using. It implies that the license is somehow changed. It isn't!

  • Confused (Score:5, Insightful)

    by shaitand (626655) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:11AM (#20589471) Homepage Journal
    I have to admit I am a little confused. You can take BSD code and close it completely under a commercial license, why couldn't you use the GPL instead of a closed commercial license? Why is it unethical to use the GPL but not to use a totalitarian closed license?

    Maybe some technical violation occurred in the credits or some such but this just sounds to me like sour grapes because they can't have the changes. They can't have the changes when the source is used in a closed commercial environment, the BSD guys maintain that as ethical so they really don't have any ground to stand on here. Nobody has violated the spirit of the BSD license which is essentially "Here it is, take it and do what you want with it, even if that means incorporating it into a product that makes you millions of dollars and completely closing the software without sharing any modifications back."

    • Re:Confused (Score:5, Informative)

      by l4m3z0r (799504) <kevinNO@SPAMuberstyle.net> on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:30AM (#20589839)

      You can take BSD code and close it completely under a commercial license, why couldn't you use the GPL instead of a closed commercial license? Why is it unethical to use the GPL but not to use a totalitarian closed license?

      Actually they cannot change the source code license. They are required by law to not alter the license. They just arent forced to re-release the source code. Should they decide to release the source code the code as taken from the BSD people is still BSD licensed and can be used under those terms.

      Nobody has violated the spirit of the BSD license which is essentially "Here it is, take it and do what you want with it, even if that means incorporating it into a product that makes you millions of dollars and completely closing the software without sharing any modifications back.

      He isnt saying they violated the spirit of the license, he is saying they violated the letter of the law by altering the copyright on code without permission or authorization and without making any changes substantial enough to count as derivative work. It doesnt matter if they are GPL people or a corporation that action is illegal and Theo is calling them out on it.

      • Re:Confused (Score:5, Insightful)

        by phliar (87116) on Thursday September 13 2007, @12:30PM (#20590897) Homepage

        Actually they cannot change the source code license.

        The code in question is dual licensed: you can use it either under the BSD license or the GPL. It's your choice. In this case the person chose the GPL (and not BSD).

        As good a hacker Theo is, he's not a copyright lawyer. (His digs at Eben Moglen are in extremely poor taste.)

        Perhaps now the "BSD is the only free license!!!" zealots will admit that they too want to restrict what others can do with their code. (There is no "100% freedom".)

        The lesson from all this is: do NOT pick a license based on politics, religion, and fashion. Read the license (or talk to a copyright lawyer) and pick the license that works the way you want it to -- not because RMS or Theo or Joe Blow says it is the only true and FREE!!! license. (You'd think hackers would be able to deal with the law better than this -- with both software and the law, what is written down is the only thing that matters. Your intentions, what you really meant, have nothing to do with anything once it's written down.)

          • Re:Confused (Score:4, Informative)

            by phliar (87116) on Thursday September 13 2007, @01:07PM (#20591585) Homepage

            SIGH... You are right you can USE it under either license. But you must distribute the source as dual license unless all the authors allow you to relicense the code.

            You're being disingenuous. In the context of this discussion we're talking about modification and redistribution. Neither the GPL or the BSD license say anything about mere use of a program.

            On what basis do you do you say that

            But you must distribute the source as dual license unless all the authors allow you to relicense the code.

            Remember that this is the law, and "but that's not what I meant!" counts for nothing; only what's written down matters. In this case, if I see "This code is dual-licensed A or B, your choice" then that's exactly what it means: on my derivative work I get to decide if I want to use A or B (or retain a dual license). If you mean "all derivative works must also be dual licensed" then say that.

            Theo is not a copyright lawyer and it's clear that neither are you. (But then again, neither am I.)

            • Re:Confused (Score:4, Insightful)

              by dctoastman (995251) on Thursday September 13 2007, @01:32PM (#20592071) Homepage
              But you couldn't add the dual-license requirement per the GPL since the GPL disallows adding any requirements. If you release GPL, you must give all downstream the same freedoms you were allowed with no other restrictions.
  • by crush (19364) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:14AM (#20589531)
    Making blanket statements about "the Linux guys" or "Linux" is so fucking inaccurate and stupid. The patch was carried in NO MAJOR GNU/LINUX DISTRO. Got that?! I'll put in bold and emphasis for you below so that your brain has a chance to absorb the point:
    NO GNU/LINUX DISTROS CARRIED THE PATCH No GNU/Linux distros carried the patch.
    Now, please, shut the fuck up.

    Sincerely,
    A happy OpenBSD user.
  • by Theovon (109752) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:16AM (#20589569)
    I'm going to give you an "If I were them, I would have...", but in this case, it's not hollow. I've actually done this before, to positive effect. If you're going to use someone else's code under terms slightly different from what they clearly intended, I see an obvious course of action: ASK PERMISSION.

    They say that it's often easier to get forgiveness than permission. This is absolutely not the case in the FOSS community. Yes, Theo is a hot-head, and he's clearly over-reacting. But at the same time, some Linux contributor didn't think very hard about the wishes of the original author of the code they borrowed. They just took it. In the FOSS community, we're not about copyright. We're about ethical sharing of ideas and the rights of both software developers and software users.

    How long could it have taken to ask? "May I use your code?" "May I alter the license on your code?" "If not, is there some compromise we can reach?"

    Learn some manners!
    • by dbc (135354) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:45AM (#20590115)
      While I can't disagree with anything that you say, still it seems to me that the right place for an author to make his wishes known is in the license. How hard is that? Anything less is simply intellectually lazy.

      And here is some raw data for you from actual Real World (TM) experience. At one Fortune 500 former employer of mine, code got released under a variety of licenses, including proprietary, BSD, and GPL, as fit the need of the situation. BSD was the license of choice for "fire and forget" situations, where the company wanted the code out there (working example code in an application note, for instance) but didn't want to be a long-term maintainer. One company lawyer said, and I'm quoting precisely: "Don't worry, a free version will always be available. Somebody somewhere will slap a GPL on it within 7 seconds of release." So you see, some people chose the BSD when they actively *want* the code to be forked under the GPL.
  • by Realistic_Dragon (655151) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:20AM (#20589645) Homepage
    1) The BSD licensed guys are pissed because someone took some code and locked them out of it, despite being rabidly pro the freedom to do exactly this.

    2) The Linux guys are technically in the right but still taking dual licensed GPL/BSD code and locking it up is a pretty shitty thing to do.

    3) Hot heads on both sides have managed to turn what should have been a quiet chat about a moderate, considered approach and with the magic described most eloquently as the PA Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory ensured that relations remain as hostile as possible.

    The only conclusion can be that the idiots on both sides (Theo included) actually work for Microsoft and are puppets dancing to the compelling dark tunes of their evil and cunning masters.

    The end.
  • Not quite right. (Score:5, Informative)

    by dwheeler (321049) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:23AM (#20589701) Homepage Journal
    The article is misleading. You can take a BSD-licensed program, modify it even slightly, and re-release the COMBINED material (original BSD + the additional modifications) under the GPL, as long your combined work obeys BOTH licenses. The legal issue is that the modified text can be under a different copyright license, and the combined work has to obey BOTH licenses. Since the GPL adds more conditions than the BSD license does (generally), in a combined work it's the GPL conditions that end up dominating the set of conditions. The only issue is whether or not the "small change" could be copyrighted; the U.S., at least, has a very low bar of what is copyrightable, so even small changes are likely to be copyrightable.

    Certainly it is NOT okay to remove the copyright notices from BSD material, as long as there's something left in the file that's covered by the BSD license. So, don't do that. But you CAN take a BSD work, combine it with other works, and have the final result as essentially GPL'ed or proprietary. My FLOSS license slide [dwheeler.com] even helps you figure out when you can do that, and when you can't.

    But that only covers the legal issues. If there's an existing project that releases something under an OSS license, it's usually better to continue to use their license than to fork off another project under a new license, especially if you're not making many changes. For a lot of reasons.

    LWN's article "Relicensing: what's legal and what's right" [lwn.net] is worth a look.

  • by MenTaLguY (5483) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:53AM (#20590291) Homepage
    I think Theo is essentially correct. To the best of my knowledge, the ground rules are:

    1. Don't touch the license header unless you make substantive changes

    2. If you make substantive changes, you may amend the license header to add your copyright (but not remove existing copyrights) under the same license

    3. If you make substantive changes and insist on licensing those changes under a different (but compatible!) license to the original, you may add a new license header above the existing one with your copyright (without modifying the existing header)

    The initial problem was that the original license header was replaced entirely, even though no substantial changes had been made. The original license header has now been restored, but there is still an issue with a new copyright declaration having been added in the absence of substantive changes.
  • by steveha (103154) on Thursday September 13 2007, @12:32PM (#20590937) Homepage
    Here is one reason why BSD guys would rather see BSD code taken completely proprietary than see it go GPL: when the code goes completely proprietary there is still a chance that patches will be contributed back to the original BSD project.

    Consider the "stupid tax". This is the "tax" you must pay if you take BSD code, change it, and keep the changes to yourself: every time the BSD project releases a new update, you will need to sync up your custom changes to the official project. The time and effort this requires is the "stupid tax" you are paying for being "stupid" (i.e. not contributing your changes back to the project).

    The hope is that after a while, companies that have been paying the stupid tax will say "this is stupid" and contribute their changes to the main project. But with a GPL fork this just won't happen.

    Any time the BSD project releases an update, someone will merge the changes in to the GPL fork. And if you contribute changes to the GPL fork, of course they are in every release and you don't need to do anything. So there is no real pressure on features added to the GPL project.

    With no GPL fork, you must choose between sharing with the BSD project, or "paying the stupid tax". With a GPL fork, you have a way to avoid the stupid tax and share with others, yet deny the changes to the BSD project. (If you are doing proprietary things with the BSD project, you will not of course have this option.)

    And of course, it must be maddening for the BSD project guys to see the patches going in to the GPL project and know that they can't use them. If the GPL project gets a new feature that's a good idea, they must re-code the feature, just because of an incompatible license. (That's why I licensed my lf [sourceforge.net] utility under BSD; I'm hoping it will become a standard part of the userland in all *NIX someday, and the thought of the BSD guys having to re-do all my work just made me sad.)

    steveha
    • Sure, but (Score:4, Insightful)

      by everphilski (877346) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:11AM (#20589469) Journal
      I think what he is trying to get at is, since the GPLers are so into the concept of 'freedom' of their license, and respecting it, why can't they offer the same level of respect to BSD license?

      Instead, GPLers strip the license and replace it with a license that they feel is 'better', but incompatible with the BSD. If they had kept it BSD, they could use it with the GPL, and the BSD folks could still use any improvements made.

      But again, no respect for the license. Following the letter of the law, true, but not the spirit. Geez, where have I heard that before ...

      • Re:Sure, but (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:14AM (#20589529)
        The GPLers didn't strip the licence. The code was available under either licence. What gets me is that Theo De Raadt is arguing that both licences apply so they couldnt remove one. He seems to not realise that if both licences applied then they couldn't use the code in FreeBSD anyway because they would be bound by the GPL parts of the licence. Funny that they kicked him off the NetBSD team for being so hard to work with. I wonder why ...
        • Re:Sure, but (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Score Whore (32328) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:39AM (#20590011)

          The code was available under either licence.


          Some was, some wasn't. Jiri changed both. Regardless it's a moot point because he isn't the owner of the code, he cannot dictate the terms to the code. What he can do is choose which terms he wants to distribute under, but he cannot pass that code along and set the terms for the people he passes it to.

          Before you reply, note that I'm talking about code that Jiri didn't write here. Code that he doesn't have any standing to set the terms on.
        • by einhverfr (238914) <chris.travers@gmail.com> on Thursday September 13 2007, @02:08PM (#20592673) Homepage Journal
          BTW, I am an avid Linux user, and I think that the Linux kernel developers who made the error made an honest mistake. Let us treat it as such.

          Unfortunately, the more I do my own research, the more worried I am about Theo's main complaint-- that the SFLC may be giving out advice that seems questionable to me.

          While IANAL, I say so based on my own understanding that it is nearly impossible to sue lawyers for malpractice and so we *all* need to develop a basic understanding of the law in areas which are relevant. Here are specific points I would make:

          1) While the BSDL and related licenses clearly do not have the intent to force sharing of code, they clearly *do* have the intent to provide the downstream recipients of the original elements of that code with the rights listed in the license. So Theo is right that you cannot simply wrap the BSDL in the GPL.

          This is particularly relevant to the GPL3 because it introduces potential license incompatibilities between BSDL-code and GPL3 code (see section 7 on removing additional permissions *without* asserting copyright).

          2) Copyright law seems even in the US holds that nonexclusive licenses are clearly indivisible and do not automatically grant sublicense rights (a sublicense being a new license issued by a licensee). Some BSD-like licenses (like the MIT License) explicitly allow sublicensing the code and in this case, wrapping it in the GPL would be allowed. Otherwise, it seems difficult to make this case. Whether exclusive licenses are divisible is not yet a settle matter of law as far as I can tell (you have the Gardner v. Nike case which suggests that they exclusive licenses are indivisible, but that is the only case I can find).

          BTW, Mr Moglen dismisses the above issue without providing any substantive argument against it.

          3) Some BSD-like licenses seem to be addressed to all downstream users and do not include the right to sublicense. The ICU licnese, for example, and the X.Org licenses start out "Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software and associated documentation files..." and does not specifically state a sublicensing right.

          Thus I am not sure that the advice that these can be automatically sublicensed under the GPL is advice that is sound.

          For these reasons, I have been suggesting that open source project leaders should seek unbiased legal advice from people outside the community.
      • Re:Sure, but (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Orange Crush (934731) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:21AM (#20589655)

        This whole "controversy" makes absolutely no sense to me. Anyone can take BSD code, change it however they desire, and they don't have to give anything back if they don't want to. That's the whole *point* of the BSD license. The altered code can then be used in a closed source proprietary product if desired.

        If a developer would like to make changes to BSD software but wants *their* contribution to be GPLed, more power to them.

      • Re:Sure, but (Score:5, Informative)

        by B'Trey (111263) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:22AM (#20589697)
        Instead, GPLers strip the license and replace it with a license that they feel is 'better', but incompatible with the BSD.

        Not really true. The issue is with software that is dual licensed - released under both BSD and GPL. The included license file says that the software may be distributed under either license at the users choice. The Linux developers chose to release it under the GPL, as they had every right to do. The problem is that they did not include the BSD license with their released code. Theo says that's a violation - they can not change the license in any way but must retain it exactly as the author released it. This leads to an absurd situation - both license, which are incompatible with one another, are simultaneously in effect. Note that the question of legality is orthogonal to the issue of the absurdity. Theo may very well be right, but so far I've seen no legal experts make the claim, nor have I seen Theo cite anything other than his own interpretation of the law to back up his claim.

        I think the solution for coders who wish to release their code under both license is to provide two separate downloads - one with the BSD license, one with the GPL license - but that doesn't help here.

        I believe that there was an issue with some code that was only BSD licensed being released under the GPL, and the kernel developers quickly acknowledged and corrected their error. What's left is the issue of dual licensed code, and this is a matter of legal interpretation, not disrespect of an author's intentions or intended copyright violation. The code being released under the GPL is modified code that was previously released under the GPL, so it's difficult to claim that the developers are violating the author's wishes by releasing their modifications of the original under the GPL.

        • Re:Sure, but (Score:5, Insightful)

          by synthespian (563437) on Thursday September 13 2007, @06:47PM (#20596969)
          I think the solution for coders who wish to release their code under both license is to provide two separate downloads - one with the BSD license, one with the GPL license - but that doesn't help here.

          But, you see, the linuxers just know that, for all practical purposes, that would void the GPL license. And they can't tolerate that. Because they like to live free inside the cardboard box Stallman made for them. The problem is, the BSDL is a superset. Think outside the box.

          This is what Reyk said:
          I used to cooperate with the people working on the
          madwifi port of "OpenHAL"; we exchanged ideas, bug fixes, and small
          code snippets.
          They sent me some bug reports and I also looked at
          their changes and reported some functional problems. This was possible
          because they kept the license in place.

          But now the Linux code is almost ready and somebody wants to cancel
          any options to cooperate by locking me out with a prepended GPL and an
          invalid copyright on top of it.
          (...)

          I also strongly disagree with the
          concept of adding a new copyright and/or a GPL license on top of it
          -
          it is still a derived work and a few stylistic changes, some code
          shuffling, and some bug fixes
          don't allow to change the copyright.


          He is very explicit and all the points to which he alludes to have technical backing in Copyright law (IANAL BTW): no substantial changes; the concept of derived work; the concept that the work was publicly displayed under a Copyright modification; and the fact that the license was removed against his will.

          What are the linux developers to do? Well, they could tweak the code to the point that there is substantial change (which would probably be stupid, as you are just adding bloat). Or, they could maintain the original license. Which would void the GPL for the parties that are interested in GPL software, except for those that take GPL software and close it, reselling it under a proprietary license (such as MySQL). It might be unfortunate (for the Linux camp) that Reyk released it under a dual-license. But it is so, and there's nothing the GPL camp can do about it.

          The SFLC lawyers are probably silent because the just know that the Linux developers would probably get cremated in court. And Theo warned that this case may not be based in the US (ever so lax in international treaties), but in the EU. It's incredible, but it seems people are sticking their heads in the sand.
          • Re:Sure, but (Score:4, Insightful)

            by IgnoramusMaximus (692000) on Thursday September 13 2007, @12:28PM (#20590863)

            Your correct but it doesn't make it right.

            This makes no sense to me.

            If you release your stuff under a license that allows something, doing so, by definition, makes that something "right".

            If you do believe that some things that can be done with your code are not "right", then you release under a license that specifically forbids those things.

            In other words the BSD people want to have the cake and eat it too, choosing arbitrarily and willy-nilly which things they believe are "right" to do with their code and which are not, without actually changing the terms of the license! They want the BSD license to be preceived as "most free" while at the same time putting arbitrary (and uwritten!) restrictions on those whom they dislike, such as us, the GPL "communists".

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      Sorry, but mods, please read the BSD license before modding parent.

      Sorry, but the BSD License SPECIFICALLY states that the copyright license/notice and diclaimers must be kept with any binary or source redistribution of the code.

      Now the code in question was dual licensed, with "either" being the join, not "both", so they may theoretically be able to chuck the BSD license. However, straight BSD does not allow removal of the license like you suggest.

      Oh, and the BSD License for the curious. Occasionally clause
    • by AHumbleOpinion (546848) on Thursday September 13 2007, @12:12PM (#20590615) Homepage
      If Theo didn't want people copying his code and redistributing it under another license, he should have used the GPL...

      I think you are missing the point, it is one of ethics not legality. The FOSS community is built upon the notion of giving back. An ethical FOSS developer would take a BSD driver, improve it, and release his/her changes under the original license. This new work is usable in Linux and he has given back to the community that the improved driver is derived from. However in this case the developers chose to engage in zealotry, to violate the FOSS spirit of giving back, and that is very insightful into their character.
    • And are you a lawyer? Cause it seems like you understanding of the law is that only lawyers can claim understanding.

      Law is understandable. It really is just common sense. That's why the jury is so important. When you think of the law, try to imagine what 10 average people would think, not what some ambulance chasing, paper pushing, pencil necked, money grubbing lawyer would think. Average people want the law to work so they can go on with their lives and not feel bad about their decision, average
    • Re:this is stupid! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by raddan (519638) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:43AM (#20590089)
      Hypocrisy is taking code from a project that shares it freely and then slapping a restrictive license on it "so that it can be shared freely". Doesn't anybody see the irony in that?

      That's the "unethical" part that Theo talks about. The "illegal" parts are:

      1. removing the BSD license notice altogether, and
      2. making it look like the authors of the linux derivative work are the original authors.

      In 1, yes, doing so doesn't change how the now-dual-licensed code is distributed, since the GPL's distribution terms supercede the BSD's. But it does change a legal document, and that is important.

      In 2, this is a bigger deal, since derivative works are subject to different copyright law, particularly given the venue.

      The thing is-- this stuff is easy to fix. Treat it like a bug, be an adult, and amend the broken files. No one wants to keep BSD drivers out of Linux, and the real meat of the discussion is: is it good for the F/OSS community to be taking code in a manner that is, at the very least, offensive to some people? You're absolutely right when you say that it's perfectly legal to slap a GPL license onto BSD code, but why do it other than to prove you can? Does anyone here really think that Atheros gives a shit about a BSD driver for their chipsets? And even if they do-- who cares? If Atheros wants to replace their shitty drivers with something better, so be it!

      F/OSS depends on cooperation to survive. If you want real software freedom, you can't be petty. The whole idea is of giving, not taking.
    • by w3woody (44457) on Thursday September 13 2007, @11:45AM (#20590129) Homepage
      It sounded to me that part of the problem was that the BSD copyright notices were stripped out of the code, which is not just obnoxious or just locking away the code, but is illegal and immoral: it removes the notice of who was the original author of the code.

      It also sounds obnoxious to take someone's code but to resubmit the changes and bug fixes under a more restrictive license--just as it would be obnoxious for a private company to submit bug fixes but to say "in order to distribute our changes you will have to license the code from us for a grand a year." But to my mind it's just that: obnoxious.